SCK, just to be clear, I am not saying miracles do not occur. I have also heard of the stories of healing. However, of the ones I've been able to check, and of the ones others have been able to check, they turn out to be unverifiable or have some other explanation. They are anecdotes and are subject to confirmation bias, and peoples' false memory of the events.

I have also seen firsthand how stories grow as key details are forgotten or left out by those who tell the story. Memories are deeply subjective and are edited more than we realize. In my life I've seen/experienced some interesting things so I've started to record them within minutes by writing them down. When i reread my notes months, years later I'm struck by how I'm forgotten what really happened and how i've mixed up the sequence of events, or the time length between the events. If I were to recite these events to someone I'd mislead them inadvertently.

Well, the truth of the matter is that miracles still DO happen, even in this day and age.

Indeed, *every* truly saved, born-again believer in the Lord Jesus Christ is a *MIRACLE* of the transforming Holy Spirit power of Almighty God.

Yes, ONLY Almighty God can work the utter *miracle* of *totally changing* the nature of a human being from that of being an un-saved, un-believer who is pretty much clueless about Almighty God into a person who has the Holy Spirit of Almighty God dwelling inside of them and who, thus, is able to understand the "deep things" of God, and, who has a deep desire to live for and obey the God who saved them.


Chess Fan

Sure, Ken; I wouldn't for a moment claim that my anecdotes are proof that healing miracles occur. They help to confirm my faith but I wouldn't expect a non-Christian to be convinced by my stories. Mind you though, with the lady at my church I had heard her complaining about her injured ankle and then I saw her at the meeting jumping up and down saying 'God has healed me!'. There seems to be little room for my memory to be playing tricks with me.

Chess Fan, do you mind me asking if you believe in miracles of the healing sort? Your previous post talking about the miracle of salvation made me wonder whether you believe in the occurrence of healing miracles and the like.

Amen. (It is a religion thread after all.)

There are several processes at work--but the bottom line is our memories are constantly being edited. Lots of people believe that their memories are infallible, but that is just one of the distortions of our brains at work. Once a memory is altered (or implanted, as in the case of false memories) it is perceived by the owner as real and accurate.

I too would be curious to know what Chess Fan have to say about this?

SCK, please don't quote cf. When you do, I feel compelled to shovel the manure back into his pit.

Cf, I presented evidence that Lindsey has lied. SCK has linked to it. In return you could have presented evidence that exonerated Lindsey. Instead all you have done accuse me of hypocrisy (you do know that implies that it is I who am the liar, not Lindsey, right?) and you have ignored the evidence.

Get Lindsey's first book and compare it to his later writings. This is something that you can check for yourself. The Bible encourages you to examine and search things so you can know falsehood from the truth. Are you willing to put in the effort required to do this? If not, then shut up.

Of course, we all know you won't check. You won't educate yourself. You want to remain ignorant so that you don't need to change your mind. You'd rather believe you are right than find out you are wrong. You'd rather be lazy and make no effort to learn.

That makes you dishonest and willfully ignorant. Christianity is about seeking the truth...you go out of your way to avoid the truth. Now that is hypocritical, not to mention somewhat ironic.

But feel free to live in your fantasy world where all you have to do is repeat your unsubstantiated evidence-contradicted opinions long enough and it will become the truth. It is the dishonest lazy way of living but if that's your message of hope...."I do believe in Lindsey, I do, I do. I do believe in Lindsey, I do, I do. I do believe in Lindsey, I do, I do...."

Hey, why don't you defend Peter Popoff now...tell us what a fine upstanding born-again believer he is, and how he isn't a charlatan, fraud, liar, con artist, sham, hypocrite, deceiver, manipulator who takes advantage of people who are true Christians. I do believe in Popoff, I do, I do...

As I said, we have the feeling that our memories are accurate and original, there is never a sense that our memories are edited or constructed.

The lady complained that her ankle was injured, but was it? For that matter it is a fairly easy step to hear others say that she was complaining and construct a memory that you heard it as well.

If it was injured, how badly was it injured? It is quite possible that this individual was already healed from the natural healing processes but she still "felt" pain in her own mind. In which case the healing was psychological.

No doubt you remember her jumping up and down much more vigorously than was actually the case. A standing person bouncing gently on their feet is easily edited to much more active bouncing.

These are just the obvious possibilities. This is why many of us do not trust anecdotes as evidence. They are just too easily "faked" by the weakness of our memory systems.

Our very human certainty in the accuracy of our memories is how liars of various types manage to do so well.

Again, I'm not saying it wasn't a miracle. With the ankle story though my first thoughts are...sprained ankles are horribly painful first thing in the a.m. (thought my ankles was broken as it couldn't even bear weight), but they can loosen up and feel almost normal by the evening and I could dance around. It doesn't have to be your edited memory at work...it could just be human biology and the way the body works depending on the extent of the injury. Of course, my memory of my ankle and the speed at which it recovered between a.m. and evenings may be an edited memory in and of itself.

Incidentally, some cancers do spontaneously regress without treatment. Rare but it happens (one paper suggests 20% for breast cancer...which has been used to promote some poorly thought through ideas.

But regression happens in people of all faiths and those of no real faith. If someone is prayed for and the cancer regresses then is that a miracle, or is that person one of the rare cases?

My main contention though is if miracles are occurring they're happening so infrequently that you can't rely on them.

Edit: second Spock's post. We are easily fooled by our minds. Watch a magicians trick once, and then try to recall exactly what he did, where his hands went, what they touched or didn't touch. Your recall will be wrong. "He never touched the prop...", "He couldn't have seen as he never looked..."

I had to watch James Randi bend a spoon by "mental effort alone" three times to catch how he did it...and I already knew how he did it but he so ably misdirected that even when I was looking for the key move, I missed it.

Ah...here is an article from Orac about anecdotal evidence clashing with reality. Newspaper headline says,
Man Who Survived Without Chemo: 'I'd Still Fight': Man Who Ran to Avoid Chemo in 1994, Says He'd Help Mom and Teen Now on the Lam.

Unfortunately, not true at all. This man had at least two rounds of chemo for Hodgkins disease.

I liked one of the comments in the comment section (ignore spelling).

Ken, first of all, I don't have that kind of faith yet so I take medications. However, if there is an easier way and the healing is already promised and all you have to do is just to go and take it, I would definitely try that route first. Precisely Hebrew 6:12 asks you to do that, that is, to inherit the promises. But like I said you need to have knowledge of the Word and you need to do it in the God's way.

Having said that, sickness could come mainly as a result of a sin, a curse, as a trial, as a chastisement. Here is a link that I stumbled upon recently that deals in depth about curses and how it operates in one's life. Breaking Curses

Diabetes is kind of a disease that can be passed on to from earlier generations so I believe it is curse related disease. The child acquired for no fault of hers. The fact that the women did not have her father also reveals some possibility of curse related issues there in the family. I am sure she would have taken every effort to break those curses but sometimes you have to persist depending on the seriousness of the sin or the curse. You may have to repent, renounce and get complete deliverance to remove the curse block that is preventing your prayer to go up. Yeah, she could have allowed medical care for her daughter, and Bible does not prevent one from doing that. But who am I suggest to a woman of faith or until I know the full issue.