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#122032 - 04/11/07 05:58 PM Re: World Religions
well-named Offline
Ninja

Registered: 02/15/03
Loc: Montana
There isn't actually as much as you might think in the Bible about the originations of "Satan", the idea isn't fleshed out as much as it is in modern christianity.

In hebrew, the word can simply mean adversary, and probably didn't start out as a proper noun. In Job it is used as a title but in that book Satan is described in a roll that's more like "official tester of faith" than as rebellious angel, of course Job is quite obviously intended to be more moral fable than theodicy, so take that as you will. It is also possible that Jesus' use of the word in speaking with Peter (Get thee behind me, Satan) was intended in the generic "adversary" sense, but I am not sure.

I think the classic description of fallen angels is found in 2nd Peter , however it doesn't mention "Satan" by name as a fallen angel. The idea of fallen angels could go back to Genesis and the story of the flood, if you interpret "Sons of God" to mean angels in that context. There may also be some preceeding jewish tradition but i'm not familiar with it.

There is also a description of "Lucifer" in Isaiah , which sounds similar to the modern idea of Satan as fallen angel, but the context of the passage could also be taken to refer to some other king of one of the surrounding nations. The translation of "Lucifer" is at least somewhat controversial, I believe it owes mostly to the latin Vulgate translation of the hebrew scriptures. According to Wikipedia , the original hebrew is a reference to a Babylonian God, which could be metaphorical for a ruler.

That's pretty much all I can remember.

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#122033 - 04/11/07 08:35 PM Re: World Religions
The Gelatinous Cube Global Moderator Offline
Recovering Necromancer

Registered: 02/25/04
Loc: Sublime Underbelly
The poplular Satan likely owes more to Milton than to any other source.

--------------------
".................. black it stood as Night,
Fierce as ten Furies, terrible as Hell,
And shook a dreadful Dart; what seem'd his head
The likeness of a Kingly Crown had on.
Satan was now at hand[.]"
_________________________
Judas Proust: The Cuddle and Kill EP
Buy it now.

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#122034 - 04/12/07 11:19 AM Re: World Religions
LimeFlavored Offline
Bishop

Registered: 01/31/07
Loc: North Dakota
And no, the serpent in the garden wasn't Satan.
_________________________
LimeFlavored.com
Cooler than you think.

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#122035 - 04/12/07 12:15 PM Re: World Religions
well-named Offline
Ninja

Registered: 02/15/03
Loc: Montana
Ha, I totally forgot genesis. Duh. Actually I think the genesis serpent is probably the best reference to a sort of "personified evil", although perhaps arguably he serves the same purpose as the adversary in Job. I guess my problem is I can't quite take the creation story in Genesis literally anyway so I tend to discount it, it's telling that I forgot to mention it.

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#122036 - 04/12/07 01:58 PM Re: World Religions
spock Offline
Ninja

Registered: 06/02/03
Loc: South Dakota, USA
Quote:
Originally posted by LimeFlavored:
And no, the serpent in the garden wasn't Satan.
If not satan, then who?
_________________________
When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?
--John Maynard Keynes

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#122037 - 04/12/07 02:14 PM Re: World Religions
Petrosianic Offline
Ninja

Registered: 08/31/04
Loc: Doo-Wah-Diddy, Mississippi
Quote:
Originally posted by spock:
Quote:
Originally posted by LimeFlavored:
And no, the serpent in the garden wasn't Satan.
If not satan, then who?
Bill Gates.
_________________________
"I brought the Atom Bomb. I think it's a good time to use it." -- Dr. Richard Gordon, King Dinosaur

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#122038 - 04/12/07 02:23 PM Re: World Religions
well-named Offline
Ninja

Registered: 02/15/03
Loc: Montana
Wait wait wait, are you saying Bill Gates tempted Eve with an Apple?

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#122039 - 04/12/07 05:19 PM Re: World Religions
Ken Offline
Ninja

Registered: 02/01/05
Loc: Canada
I thought the serpent was satan too? I hadn't realized there was another interpretation. Cool.

"And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head and you will strike his heel"

is supposed to refer to the defeat of the tempter (adversary?). Christianity believes it refers to Jesus who had his heel bruised (temporary death), and the head crushing either as the redemption of people out of the grasp of the enemy, or the eventual fate of satan at the time of judgement; Unfortunately, I can't remember what this verse signified for the Jews. I'd google it but I'm just passing through.

Quote:
Wait wait wait, are you saying Bill Gates tempted Eve with an Apple?
Could be. Remember that time ship crashed in the 70s while Bill was camping in the woods, and he made good use of it till the temporal police showed up.

p.s. clever pick-up on Petrosianic's Bill Gates' post clap
_________________________
Accomplishing the impossible means only that the boss will add it to your regular duties.--Doug Larson

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#122040 - 04/12/07 09:11 PM Re: World Religions
Chess Fan Offline
Ninja

Registered: 10/17/03
Loc: Pennsylvania
Quote:
Originally posted by LimeFlavored:

And no, the serpent in the garden wasn't Satan.
Quote:
Originally posted by spock:

If not satan, then who?
Spock, you "beat me to the punch" here! laugh

I am also interested in seeing just what that LimeFlavored's answer is going to be.


Chess Fan
_________________________
**Everyone, please feel free to click on to, and, to read: -- "My End Times Blog" **

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#122041 - 04/13/07 01:24 AM Re: World Religions
niceforkinmove Offline
Ninja

Registered: 02/24/03
Loc: Bloomington
Quote:
Originally posted by octal:
Quote:
Originally posted by The Gelatinous Cube:
The last page of the old thread terrifies me. It makes the implosion seem so impermanent. I have nightmares about imploded posts returning to haunt the board.
When a thread implodes in a sudden or violent manner it is not uncommon for the thread to leave behind a kind of psychic residue, lost and confused they haunt the forums in which they died, never able to find rest.

...

Then there are the zombie threads. BRAIIIIIINNNSSSS
Residue? I think the same arguments come back again and again full blown. smile

Anyway
I know we have discussed what "faith" quite a bit here. I have been looking on the net for different ways that the word "Pistis" might have meant. "Pistis" is the ancient greek word that most often is translated as "faith" in the christian bible. (as opposed to the hebrew bible which christistians call the old testament.)

I do not know the greek used in the christian bible and so I really can only read articles and try to crack up what read based on other articles and references.

I found this article very interesting. The thing is this author argues that the greek is best read as saying that it was Jesus's faith that saved us. Not that it is our faith in Jesus that saves us.

http://www.presenttruthmag.com/archive/XLIV/44-3.htm
_________________________
I have pondered the wisdom of the sages. I see now I have slain without knowledge of what to do rightly. But what care I for such men?--Genghis Khan

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