Kevin: Proverbs 15:1.

'A gentle answer turns away wrath, but harsh words stir up anger.'

I'm sorry but I'm not certain what you mean, Ed - are you saying I should not use such harsh words as I did in my previous post?

Well, Ken, if you die in your present un-saved condition, what are you going to say to Almighty God at the White Throne judgment to try to defend your words of calling two of His saved children "quite stupid", "delusional" or a "deliberate liar"; PLUS, your calling Joel Rosenberg "dangerously delusional!"

Ken, I find it interesting that you open your quote above with the words, "By their fruits, you shall know them."

Indeed, Ken, by YOUR fruits of your constantly laying out very condemning judgment against certain saved believers in the Lord Jesus Christ, what do you think that Almighty God Himself knows about you?

Well, Ken, I have a feeling that what Almighty God knows about you "'ain't very pretty at all!!"


Chess Fan

How do you know that Ken is wrong about Rosenberg and Lindsay? How do you know that God will judge Ken harshly for his opinions about Rosenberg and Lindsay? How do you know that Rosenberg and Lindsay are in fact saved? If someone says that he is saved, is that enough evidence for you, personally?

@Crumhorn:

First of all, what really bothers me about Ken is that, because, *by his very own admission*, he is an un-saved man, Ken *does not* have Holy Spirit guided insight, because, as an un-saved, un-believer in the Lord Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit of God does *not* live in his heart.

However, that does NOT stop Ken from making his *many* and *constant* on-going attacks against saved servants of Almighty God like Hal Lindsay and Joel Rosenberg.

Crumhorn, IF Ken dies in his presently un-saved condition, he *will* be judged for every sin that he has ever committed in his life.

Indeed, Crumhorn, what do YOU think that Almighty God will do to an un-saved, un-believer who *constantly* puts down, condemns, etc., the labors of saved Christian people who try to live their lives for God's glory.

Yes, I will be the first to admit that both Hal Lindsay AND Joel Rosenberg are *far from perfect*; however, I have read *much* from the writings of both of these men, and, as much as I can humanly know, both of these men's hearts are in the right place in their trying to glorify Almighty God by their works for Him in such things as speaking on Bible prophecy, etc., (yes, imperfectly of course!)

Finally, Crumhorn, IF a person comes out and boldly proclaims their personal saving faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, and, if I see an on-going pattern of their trying to live their lives to give glory to God, *(even as imperfectly as that might be)*, then, yes, I will take that person at their word that they are, indeed, truly saved!

I hope that this helps, Crumhorn.


Chess Fan

Chess Fan, you seem to be implying here that non-Christians are not allowed to give any negative comments about Christians. I don't agree with this - I think debate is not something to shy away from, and if the public statements / writings of Christians can't stand up to scrutiny then perhaps they're not worth making.

But what if someone says he is saved, but is not in fact saved? Or what if someone says he is saved, but behaves in a way which suggests that he lies deliberately or that he deliberately provokes hatred or misunderstanding for his own benefit? My quesiton is: How do you know that L and R are saved, and that Ken is wrong, and that God will judge Ken harshly? I don't question your own faith. I take it for granted that you are saved, and that you know that you are saved. By the same token, I don't believe you can see into the hearts of other men, nor do I believe that you can say with absolutely certainty how God will react. So, again, my questions are: how can you know that others are saved, and how can you know that God will judge Ken harshly?

Yes, of course, *ONLY* Almighty God *knows for sure* as to whether or not that a person is *truly* saved.


Well, if a person, (key word -- *deliberately*); indeed, if a person *deliberately* lies or *deliberately* provokes hatred or misunderstanding for his own benefit, then, I have sincere doubts about that person's salvation.

Now, indeed, Petrosianic routinely accuses ME of doing these very things.

Crumhorn, are you implying that I, personally, do these sorts of things *deliberately* here on this Message Board?


Chess Fan

No, I'm asking in general terms.

Okay, in closing here, Crumhorn, as I told you before, of course, I, as a mortal human being, *can NOT know for sure* as to whether or not that any person is truly saved; indeed, only Almighty God knows for sure.

And, Crumhorn, as far as God judging Ken harshly; well, IF Ken becomes truly saved by his personally believing on the Lord Jesus Christ *before* he dies, then, of course, all of Ken's sins will then be totally covered under the shed blood of Jesus Christ, and, Ken will certainly *not* have ANY of his sins judged by Almighty God.

Also, as far as my *knowing* that God will judge Ken harshly IF Ken dies as an un-saved, un-believer in the Lord Jesus Christ; well, Crumhorn, please get a Bible out and turn to the book of Revelation, Chapter 20, and read verses 11 through 15 to find out what happens to *every* un-saved person who appears before Almighty God at the White Throne judgment of all un-saved, un-believers.


Chess Fan