Well, Kevin, going through a period of struggle means that you are human like the rest of us, and, I have *no problem at all* with that!


Once again, Kevin, your going through periods of doubt makes you like every other Christian; (yes me too!), who have had periods of doubt about whether or not that we are true Christians.

Usually, my periods of doubt come when I am struggling with some sin or another, and, the Devil comes and whipers in my ear something like: "Steve, you did THAT, and you think that you are a Christian?!"

However, those periods of doubt are usually very short lived when I remember that that is why that Jesus Christ is my Savior; it is because I am a sometimes very weak sinner who *constantly* needs the forgiveness and the cleansing blood of my Lord Jesus Christ to forgive and to cover the sins in my life!


Well, Kevin, your talking about your possibly *rejecting* Christianity is the part that I have a BIG problem with!

I personally believe that it is impossible for a truly saved believer in the Lord Jesus Christ to *ever* totally reject Christianity altogether.

Kevin, in the Gospel of John, in Chapter 6, Verses 25-59, the Lord Jesus was teaching on the subject of His being "the Bread of Life."

Some of His teaching was very difficult for many of Jesus' so-called "disciples" to accept; because, the text goes on like this:


Jesus then asked those so-called "disciples" the question, (Verse 61)-"Does this offend you?"

Jesus then goes on to tell them that, (Verse 63B)-"The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life."

And then, these are the key words that Jesus says to these so-called "disciples":


And the text goes on to say right after this that, (Verse64B)- "For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray Him."

Then Jesus goes on to say in verse 65, "This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless the Father has enabled Him."

(At this point in the text, Jesus Christ is making it *quite clear* that Divine enablement is necessary for people to come to saving faith in Him.)

Then, right after this, in the very next verse in the text it reads,


So, *right after* Jesus tells this group of people whom He was teaching that no one can come to Him unless they are *Divinely* enabled by Almighty God, what happens?

Well, as Verse 66 tells us plainly, "Many of His disciples turned back and no longer followed Him."

Indeed, their un-believing turning back and no longer following Jesus was utter plain proof that they had *never* been Divinely enabled and truly saved by Almighty God.

Why did these so-called "disciples" reject Jesus Christ and totally turn their back on Him?

If you read back through His teachings there in the Gospel of John, it was largely because of Jesus Christ's demand for personal faith in Him alone, His teaching on true atonement for sin, and his stressing the total inabilty of human beings to save themselves by their own "good works", and, on His stressing that true salvation was a work of God alone.

This went *against* what these un-saved "disciples" wanted to hear, and, what they actually believed; so, they ended up turning their back on Jesus Christ and totally leaving Him.

Finally, Kevin, however, look at the reaction of the *truly saved* disciples in the remainder of the text of this passage from the Word of God.

Jesus asks the 12 disciples; (well, 11 of them were truly saved, because Judas Iscariot was among them); anyway, Jesus Christ asks the 11 *truly saved* disciples:


Now, Kevin, read carefully what the spokesman for these 11 truly saved disciples, Simon Peter, says in answer to Jesus' question to him:


Now, Kevin, in closing here, please think and pray carefully and consider what I have shared with you here from the Word of God.

IF, you would *ever* end up *totally rejecting* Jesus Christ and Christianity at some point in your life in the future, you tell me:

"What does this say about whether or not that you were *ever* truly saved?!"


Chess Fan

Well, I'm glad for you (genuinely). But it seems that many Christians go through lengthy periods of doubt and struggle, and I think we fellow believers must be careful to avoid making such people feel this is somehow their fault. It might be, but I think often it is not. Indeed, doesn't God bring people closer to himself through times of struggling, when we learn not to trust in our own feelings of joy and closeness with the Lord, but in his promises and his faithfulness?





That's fine. I'm not sure where I stand on this issue but I think it is good to acknowledge that those who believe differently to ourselves may still be devoted and strong followers of Jesus. I am uncomfortable with your implications that, because I do not believe as you do on certain matters, I am therefore a spiritual novice or weak in my faith.

Thanks for explaining why you believe that genuine believers cannot ever completely reject Jesus. As I said, I'm not sure where I stand on this and I'm too tired right now to think it through properly! Sorry...

But just a quick comment - I feel like you have hammered me over the head with your argument; like you think I'm stupid to not see what is so obvious to you. An argument might be completely solid but if the way it is put causes bad feeling then the argument will not be given a fair hearing. I feel that you have little respect for my spiritual understanding, and until that feeling changes then, sadly, I'm unlikely to be able to take on board what you say. I wish it weren't so but it is. Sorry again.

And didn't God come down on Job's side in the end even though he started having serious doubts about God's overall niceness?

I'm not sure how widely the ideas in St. John of the Cross are appreciated outside of catholicism, but just for the outside perspective it's interesting to note that within some sects of christianity the struggle with doubt is considered an intrinsic part of spiritual development.

See http://www.amazon.com/Dark-Night-Soul-Masterpiece-Literature/dp/0385029306

@South Coast Kevin and Sam:

Please *read once again* what I wrote in my previous post here on this page.

You will see that I am certainly *NOT* making fun of, putting down, mocking, making un-kind judgment of, etc., anyone's doubts and struggles, etc., in their Christian faith and walk with the Lord!

Indeed, *all* Christians, (including myself), who have been saved for any length of time have had their doubts and struggles, etc., in their Christian faith and in their walk with the Lord.

No, my BIG problem was with *what I considered to be* South Coast Kevin's very flippant and very disrespectful to the Lord's way of saying that he might end up someday "looking back with embarrassment at my time as a Christian", and, with his saying that, "If I do become a convinced atheist then the embarrassment would come from thinking how stupid I was to believe that Christianity nonsense."

Indeed, I do NOT view those words from Kevin as "struggling with your faith words"; but, instead, I view those words as actually being very flippantly disrespectful words IF those words are coming from a truly saved Christian!


Chess Fan

Well, Job did complain about the lost flocks and the fact that all his kids were killed, plus him being smote with boils and all, but then God pointed out, "Hey, I got rid of your wife, didn't I?" and then Job had to confess that, on balance, he came out on the profit side.

Get it? Profit side?

I did not mean those comments to be flippant and disrespectful and I still don't feel they were inappropriate. I dearly hope and pray that I never come to a point where I look back with embarrassment on my time as a Christian.

Chess Fan, perhaps you could repeat for me what, in your view, makes someone a Christian. A few times now you've expressed doubts about whether I am genuinely a Christian even though I've repeatedly said 'Yes, I am a Christian'. In your view, what else is there to being a Christian?

I got it, Ed. No pain, no gain! Now, do you get it??

(hint: Beautiful kids!)

Uh, Kevin, remember that, *just yesterday*, you told me the following:


I mean, Kevin, are you now changing your mind, in that, you will now "take on board" what I say?


Chess Fan

Good point, CF. Never mind then. Just please try to acknowledge that people who believe differently to you on various matters of Christianity might still be strong, sincere believers. Cut me a bit of grace, would you?