I've been reading this book about education (and worth reading for many of us concerned about eductation).

The part of relevance to this discussion is that the author claims that the poorest one-third in the U.S. are substaintially poorer than the poorest one-third in western European countries (ignoring the value of publicly provided health care). I'm to lazy to open the book right now, but I believe the bottom 10% in western Europe is where the bottom one-third in the U.S. would lie.

Poverty is a risk factor for many things, including health and wellness. Basically these figures suggest that at the low end of the economic scale folks in the U.S. are going to be noticeably less healthy at baseline than their western European counterparts.

Since we are talking about a full third of the U.S. population the influence on statistics such as life expectancy will be substantial. We really need to eliminate the poorest 25% or so of the U.S. population in order to get something approximating a comparison of health care system quality with Europe.

Edit: don't know why this shows me replying to RB...I was just adding a message to the thread.

This is funny - and wrong- on so many levels.

First there is a more literal meaning of the word "eliminate" - and case can be made that eliminating people is exactly what the US system is doing.

And then there is a brilliant idea of "if we don't count people who get screwed over by our system, then maybe our system doesn't compare that badly with those of other countries". Yeah, and maybe slavery isn't so bad -if we don't count slaves-, either.

Okay, I agree the double meaning of "eliminate" is inappropriate in this context. I don't propose killing anyone.

However, if you are interested in comparing the quality of the health care delivery systems in western Europe to the U.S. you have to equate the groups being compared.

That is not, as you suggest, giving up on the folks who are not part of the comparison. It means identifying as accurately as possible what is working and what is broken. We need to know if it is the health care delivery system that needs fixing or should we be more worried about poverty?

Just a funny video (although ironically exposing the hidden agenda of hardcore Conservative bastards) by Jon Stewart.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sa69puS7J0Q

Does anyone from Europe know if the health care system covers immigrants and guest workers from places like Turkey? That would be something worth knowing.

I decided this goes under health care reform.

I realize that I'm not clear who the anti-vaccine movement consists of. With the Jenny McCarthy link I figured it was the liberals....but with Beck and Limbough on the bandwagon I realize I don't know who these wack jobs are.

I do know that the CBS morning news has been broadcasting news clips telling people that unless you are in a very small number of narrow risk groups the vaccines are safe and recommended.

They need someone who is better at presenting statistics. If I remember correctly, they reported that 1 of 2 without a vaccination will get H1N1. Of those who get the vaccine 1 in 10,000 will have a bad side effect.

While we can guess that a 50% chance of getting the flu is worse than the 0.001% chance of vaccine side effects, it would be more effective to present a death rate per thousand of those who do not get the vaccine.

One of my concerns about gov't run health care is that coverage for things like vaccines and "alternative" medicine will be determined by ignorant politicians rather than competent professionals who understand "evidence based medicine."

As has been said on other sites,

All of these people have denied and rejected basic science for ideological reasons. They don't have the thinking skills needed to sort out reality from fantasy.
I agree. That is a definite concern. We were on the way to eradicating measles, but thanks to the misinformed and just plain crackpots it is making a comeback.

Jenny McCarthy body count. This looks at diseases that could have been prevented by MMR shot (I think). Some people cannot get the shot. Mostly they don't get sick because the population has a high enough vaccination rate that the disease can't find a foothold. This is herd immunity. If herd immunity drops below 90%-95% then those who aren't protected stand a real risk of getting sick. If you avoid shots and get sick, no sympathy here. But if you pass on that disease to a child too young to have a shot, or to someone who is allergic to the ingredients in the shot, then that is bordering on criminal behaviour especially if that young person dies as a result of the disease.

I'm guessing that Jenny would be horrified by a school cafeteria serving peanut butter. But she's perfectly happy to have them killed by disease.

In Austria (and, I suppose, in most other European countries) health care is mandatory for everyone who has a legal job (plus those who are unemployed or retired), regardless of the citizenship.

Not sure what "mandatory" means here. Does it mean everybody has to pay the health care tax? What about tourists? If a tourist breaks something at an Austrian sky resort, would they have to pay for the medical care?