Okay, I was talking too generically, and haven't seen the whole Schaeffer thing yet. I started to watch it last night and got called away. I'll watch the whole thing tonight, but I'm going to be tough on it and make it proves its cases. Both the Republicans and Democrats have convinced me over the years that the other is stark raving mad, and if only 2/3 of the Congress is delusional, that's actually a little better than I'd hoped for.

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"Do I say that you're the lesser of two evils or the lessee?" -- The King of Id's Campaign Manager

That thought crossed my mind after I posted.

I'm interested to know your take on Schaeffer. Remember that conversation we had a while back about how a fanatic in one realm will be a fanatic if he's converted to another realm? E.g. the soviet general who became a Christian. When watching Schaeffer I keep remembering your points about how it may be the personality that dictates a person's fanaticism and not their actual beliefs.

I wouldn't mind reading a book or two by Schaeffer so I can get a better handle on where he's coming from.

Kevin, technically speaking there is only one definition of omniscience, and Open Theism isn't it.

As for blaiming you for the wrongs you do, you would not be doing those wrongs had you been left uncreated. It is thereforefore a problem for Christian theology to assign God the power for creating man but not the responsiblility for man's actions, given that Chrsitans hold God to be both omniscient and omnipotent.

Regarding my personal beliefs, I never discuss them on this board or in my classroom. I want the discussion to be about the topic, not about Ed Yetman. The latter is an uninteresting subject by comaprison.

Ken, it used to be said by the Nazis that the best Nazi was a converted Communist. It probably part of the whole "filled with desperate intensity" thing.

I don't remember the exact numbers, but I remember something earlier this year when Nancy Pelosi said that we were losing, I think, 50 million jobs a month. Somebody called her on it. Hey, that would make the whole country unemployed in about 5 months. Don't you mean 50,000? She just ignored it, and a few minutes later, repeated the 50 million number. I don't know if it's lying or delusional or both, but if you spend too long in a job where you just say any old thing you can get away with, it must take its toll after a while.




Yeah, I think fanaticism is more about how you approach your beliefs than about their content. The General guy seemed to approach Christianity exactly the same way he'd approached Communism; very focused, enthusiastic and driven, and needing to tell everyone he met that it was the greatest thing since sliced bread whether they were listening or not.

I'm just the opposite in that way, and usually don't talk at all unless I think people are interested in hearing. You'd never guess that from my run-on novel length postings, but a message board is completely different from a face to face encounter. In a group of people, only one person can have the floor at a time, and the others pretty much have to hear the one who's talking whether they want to or not. A message board is different. Everyone can have their say simultaneously, not just the most outgoing ones, and the only people who will read my posts are the ones who want to. The ones who roll their eyes and say "There he goes again", will just scroll past unread and not be troubled by them. There's (at least) one guy I know that I'm on friendly terms with, who has me on Ignore, I suppose because he can only take me in small doses and doesn't want to wear out his scrolling finger going past long posts he doesn't want to read.

Okay, fine. As I said, I'm not sure about the Open Theism thing but if subscribing to that view means that, by definition, one doesn't believe God is omniscience then so be it, I guess.


I believe that God created humanity, but that humanity chose to do wrong, to go our own way. I just don't see how God creating humanity makes him responsible for all that we do - even if he knew it in advance. Anyhow, at the end of the day, my faith does not stand or fall on whether I can find answers to philosophical / logical issues like this. My idea of what God is like means that I shouldn't expect to be able to understand everything about him. I seek to understand but when I fail it does not undermine my faith because I believe that God is beyond human understanding, being creator of the universe and all that.


Well, that's your prerogative but it does make it harder for me to engage with you. And I really enjoy talking about these things with you! I sometimes feel like I'm in one of your classes rather than being involved in a sharing of ideas and opinions. Would you at least be willing to say whether you think it possible for there to be an omniscient, omnipotent and good being? And why you do or don't think it possible?

Ed, how does free will fit in with the discussion of omniscience?

Kevin: I like to refer to great thinkers than myself, not only because they are greater, I honestly can't find much to improve on their work, and I am more or less to content to follow them. For example, regarding a being that is "5-o" (omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, omnibenign (all-good) omnibenevolent (all goodeness to others)) and his existence, I would refer you to the ontological argument of St. Anselm, who argues that a perfect being must exist, as his non-existence cancels his perfection, thus he must logically exist. Worth studying, especially if you wish to be a serious Christian.

If you say "I am a Christian" you are asserting belief in a 5-o deity. This creates a lot of logical problems, and if you want to want to be serious about defending Christianity you need to know this stuff. Perpetrators of things like "Open Theism" do more damage to Christianity than the Crusades.

Spock: the traditional Christian response is that although God foreknows the future, that does not mean that he determines it; the formula is "foreknowledge is not determinism." This is also the position of Judaism, but as Judaism does not have the added issues of Original Sin, Eternal Damnation and the Doctrine of Election, it isn't such a contradiction in Judaism.

Now, wait a minute, I don't see why we have to believe that God comes from Hawaii.

Where else would a perfect being come from--Detroit? I mean, if you created Hawaii, wouldn't you spend all your time there?