This clearly shows that CF's God is a very moody person or is not in full control of himself. When he is angry, he will unleash earthquakes, forest fires, floods, tsunami etc. And when he is happy he might not! It is like saying I am in full control of my house and guarding it, yet I let thieves to break-in and take what they want. And it is up to me to be contradictory and not for anyone to know that. Makes no sense. Glad that there are some sensible folks like Kevin, Spock, Ken, Spud, Ed and others who seem to present their viewpoints even when disagreements arise from time to time.

Some observations/questions to Kevin (if he would like to answer of course):

1. When I grew up in India, all I heard/read of Christianity was about love, kindness, helping one's neighbour, killing is wrong, violence is wrong, forgiving even your worst enemy etc etc. I should say that I didn't come across Christian sects like Southern Baptists or Evangelical Christians and mostly came across Catholics, other Protestents etc. Never did any Christian (even the fanatically proseltysing ones) ever tell me that I will burn in hell or that I am unsaved. What exactly do they teach in UK in general and your church/community in particular about the core concepts of Christianity? Stress on good life or stress on second-coming of Jesus Christ? I am curious.

2. How seriously do you believe in the second-coming of Christ and that the world will come to an end?

3. Finally, do you seriously believe every non-Christian is condemned or unsaved? Also, do you think that every Christian is saved irrespective of what crimes he or she commits in his/her lifetime?

Thanks in advance!

"So God allows bad and evil things to happen but we both agree he has the power to stop them. I think this paradox needs to be acknowledged and an explanation attempted. How can God be both all-powerful and all-good when he permits things like natural disasters, warfare, famine etc. to happen?"

Kevin, this is called "theodicy". It is not much different from the paradox I was posing you about God's omniscience.

RE: definition of Chrisitan. I would say adherence to the Nicene or Apostle's Creed is pretty much the acid test of Christian belief. If you do not accept that, you are not a Christian.

I would also say that no Christian can go about in the Bible picking and choosing what he wants to believe. You either accept it all or you deny it all; there is no Christian middle ground. The problem of course is what the Bible actually says, which is a huge and thorny problem.

RE: Open theism. This is set on a basic logical fallacy, as either Ken or Petrosianic can affirm. Either a term means what it means or it does not. What the Open Theists do is a perfectly natural and human thing to do, namely, solve the problem by defining it away. It hurts Christianity worse than the Crusades because there were some good reasons for the Crusades (resisting the aggression of Islam, for example). There are no good reasons for begging the question and thus putting Christianity into a doubtful position.

RE: What to read. Ken found this great website. Start here: http://www.fallacyfiles.org/taxonomy.html The best way to start the study of philosophy is to study logic, and the best place to start is to weed out the fallacies in one's own thinking.

As for a text on the philosophy of religion, try To Believe or Not to Believe edited by E.D. Klemke. It's pretty exhaustive of the key topics in the philosophy of religion.

C.S. is a second-rate apologist and a hack. His work seems "accessible" because he doesn't really grasp the enormity of the problems he attacks. He writes good fiction though, the type you would read on a long bus trip.

Hmmm..., so, I am now being criticized that my views of the Bible are "totally wrong", "not deep enough", etc., by Ken, Spud, and Krish; (who are three people who have **no** Holy Spirit-led spiritual understanding of the Bible whatsoever.)

Uh, okay, carry on!


Chess Fan

What am I, Chess Fan? Chopped Liver? No criticism for me?

Well, Ed, you did not join in with the criticizing of me during this latest round of the criticizing of my Biblical views that was done by those three *spiritually clueless* gentlemen whom I named in my previous post.

Also, Ed, kudos to you, ( !!), for your pointing out to South Coast Kevin his errors concerning that Open Theism **garbage** that he seems to be espousing the merits of here in this thread.


Chess Fan

In this, the following November 13th, 2009 edition of The Hal Lindsey Report, among other things, Hal talks about how that the social madness that IS mis-guided political correctness helped to enable the murderous rampage that Major Nidal Hasan went on last week at Fort Hood, Texas: -- "The Hal Lindsey Report."


Chess Fan

I didn't know that about Lewis, Ed. His writing is accessible, as you said. Not sure I would call him a hack, but I did find some of his arguments unconvincing. E.g. This argument was taken up later by Josh McDowell in his book, Know What You Believe, and he didn't make it any more convincing.

The Problem of Pain is very accessible, and is well written and logical in its presentation (from what I remember). I still think his points are valid, but I'd be interested in knowing what critiques have been published.

I've read a lot of Lewis, and his apologetics are weak. Take your quote--students throw it up to me all the time. I point out that it is a good example of false trilemma (as opposed to false dilemma). Jesus could be liar, lunatic or Lord, as they say--then I point out he could also be a complete fiction, or simple someone honestly mistaken.

Lewis probably had greater insight into theodicy, given the death of his wife.

I have a low opinion of McDowell, so low I won't even read his books.

Ken - thanks for the reminder about 'The Problem of Pain'. I'll read it soon!

Ed - thank you for your thoughts and recommendations. I'll have a look at that website and book.

Chess Fan - how about playing the ball rather than the man? You can't dismiss what Ken, Spud and Krish say just because they aren't (in your view) Christians.

Krish - I'll try to answer your questions in a separate post...