We Love Our Sponsors
Shout Box

Newest Members
Kennyboy, ChessIndia, IsauroLongo, WOWO, AdrainRose
2478 Registered Users
Forum Stats
2478 Members
10 Forums
2492 Topics
71187 Posts

Max Online: 351 @ 11/12/12 04:51 PM
Page 50 of 65 < 1 2 ... 48 49 50 51 52 ... 64 65 >
Topic Options
#152998 - 03/06/10 10:41 AM Re: Healthcare Reform [Re: spock]
Petrosianic Offline
Ninja

Registered: 08/31/04
Loc: Doo-Wah-Diddy, Mississippi
Originally Posted By: spock
The reality was that he kicked the whole plan development process to congress. No broad discussion or solicitation of ideas. No bipartisanship/post-partisanship.


Not even monopartisanship. It was concocted in secret by a very few. Democrats who went on talk shows to promote it had to do so in the vaguest terms because even most of them had no real idea what was there. Reid, Pelosi and Obama knew what was in it, as well as probably a handful of others, but that's it.

Top
#153008 - 03/06/10 08:00 PM Re: Healthcare Reform [Re: Petrosianic]
Ed Yetman, III Offline
Ninja

Registered: 12/08/04
Loc: Tucson, Arizona
"Not even monopartisan" is a nice and exact distinction. With 30-plus House Democrats against, and one lone Republican renegage in favor, this program isn't even supported by one entire party.

A writer at realclearpolitics.com pointed out the absurdity of objections to the filibuster. The Senate, he wrote, is meant to be anti-democratic. One could craft a supermajority of 82 senators and still represent less than half the population of the U.S.
_________________________
Ed Yetman, III
YetmanBrothers.com

"I will not be pushed, passed, isolated, blockaded, doubled, undoubled, or promoted!"--The Pawn.

Top
#153052 - 03/09/10 09:07 AM Re: Healthcare Reform [Re: Ed Yetman, III]
Ed Yetman, III Offline
Ninja

Registered: 12/08/04
Loc: Tucson, Arizona
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/09/opinion/09brooks.html

Ken, here is a good article that provides a laundry list of problems with Obamacare.
_________________________
Ed Yetman, III
YetmanBrothers.com

"I will not be pushed, passed, isolated, blockaded, doubled, undoubled, or promoted!"--The Pawn.

Top
#153054 - 03/09/10 10:08 AM Re: Healthcare Reform [Re: Ed Yetman, III]
spock Offline
Ninja

Registered: 06/02/03
Loc: South Dakota, USA
Originally Posted By: Ed Yetman, III
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/09/opinion/09brooks.html

Ken, here is a good article that provides a laundry list of problems with Obamacare.


I like that the author opens with a discussion about that passion felt for the issue. That many feel passionate that something needs to be done cannot be denied. I would count myself among those who are passionate on health care.

But not to the point of accepting any policy in an effort to get some policy on the table. Which is the problem with the current round of policy making--the passion to get something done has overwhelmed the reasoning skills needed to get something useful done.

The evidence of group think among democratic leaders is already in evidence, we don't need to wait for the release of presidential papers years from now to see it. Group think usually leads to poor decisions.

With some folks clamoring for a change, any change, just to get something done; and the change coming in the form of a plan formed in the isolation of "the group" we can expect a lot of unpleasant results, should the plan pass.

And it is sad, really sad, that we are wasting so much time arguing about a proposal that should have been killed before it got anywhere near being debated. That is time that has been taken away from finding genuine solutions to the problems we face.
_________________________
When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?
--John Maynard Keynes

Top
#153055 - 03/09/10 10:31 AM Re: Healthcare Reform [Re: Ed Yetman, III]
Petrosianic Offline
Ninja

Registered: 08/31/04
Loc: Doo-Wah-Diddy, Mississippi
This isn't really a complete laundry list, just a specialized list focusing on explaining why the bill isn't really deficit neutral.

Quote:
There is the doc fix dodge. The legislation pretends that Congress is about to cut Medicare reimbursements by 21 percent. Everyone knows that will never happen, so over the next decade actual spending will be $300 billion higher than paper projections.

There is the long-term care dodge. The bill creates a $72 billion trust fund to pay for a new long-term care program. The sponsors count that money as cost-saving, even though it will eventually be paid back out when the program comes on line.

There is the subsidy dodge. Workers making $60,000 and in the health exchanges would receive $4,500 more in subsidies in 2016 than workers making $60,000 and not in the exchanges. There is no way future Congresses will allow that disparity to persist. Soon, everybody will get the subsidy.

There is the excise tax dodge. The primary cost-control mechanism and long-term revenue source for the program is the tax on high-cost plans. But Democrats aren’t willing to levy this tax for eight years. The fiscal sustainability of the whole bill rests on the naïve hope that a future Congress will have the guts to accept a trillion-dollar tax when the current Congress wouldn’t accept an increase of a few billion.

There is the 10-6 dodge. One of the reasons the bill appears deficit-neutral in the first decade is that it begins collecting revenue right away but doesn’t have to pay for most benefits until 2014. That’s 10 years of revenues to pay for 6 years of benefits, something unlikely to happen again unless the country agrees to go without health care for four years every decade.

There is the Social Security dodge. The bill uses $52 billion in higher Social Security taxes to pay for health care expansion. But if Social Security taxes pay for health care, what pays for Social Security?

There is the pilot program dodge. Admirably, the bill includes pilot programs designed to help find ways to control costs. But it’s not clear that the bill includes mechanisms to actually implement the results. This is exactly what happened to undermine previous pilot program efforts.



These don't all seem equal, though. The 10-6 (Good Buddy?) dodge seems far and away the biggest. One problem with this that the article doesn't mention. The plan, as it exists, is to charge for 10 years but only provide services for 6. That's bad enough. But even then, the plan depends on the notion that Congress will dutifully save that money that they collect those first four years, and not spend it on other pet projects. How likely is that?

Top
#153056 - 03/09/10 10:52 AM Re: Healthcare Reform [Re: Petrosianic]
spock Offline
Ninja

Registered: 06/02/03
Loc: South Dakota, USA
Originally Posted By: Petrosianic
But even then, the plan depends on the notion that Congress will dutifully save that money that they collect those first four years, and not spend it on other pet projects. How likely is that?


The correct answer is some very small number that is sufficiently close to 0 that we may as well consider it to be zero.
_________________________
When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?
--John Maynard Keynes

Top
#153060 - 03/09/10 01:29 PM Re: Healthcare Reform [Re: spock]
Crumhorn Offline
Ninja

Registered: 02/26/03
Loc: Canada
It appears to me that health care reform in the US has been hijacked, at least in part, by private campaign finance in general, and by the corporate lobby in particular.

The US political process is so f'ed up. It wouldn't bother me so much but for the inescapable fact that as the US goes, so goes Canada, especially with our current administration.

Top
#153062 - 03/09/10 05:00 PM Re: Healthcare Reform [Re: Crumhorn]
Ed Yetman, III Offline
Ninja

Registered: 12/08/04
Loc: Tucson, Arizona
I think the f'ing up is born from the escape from reality that we've had for decades, perhaps since the end of World War II. As there is no "real" danger we do nothing seriously. I wonder if this is an evolutionary trait: when bananas are plentiful and leopards absent, we fight over who throws away the banana skins.
_________________________
Ed Yetman, III
YetmanBrothers.com

"I will not be pushed, passed, isolated, blockaded, doubled, undoubled, or promoted!"--The Pawn.

Top
#153070 - 03/09/10 08:29 PM Re: Healthcare Reform [Re: Ed Yetman, III]
Petrosianic Offline
Ninja

Registered: 08/31/04
Loc: Doo-Wah-Diddy, Mississippi
Maybe, but Canada hasn't been in any big danger either, and they're not 12 trillion in debt.

Top
#153071 - 03/09/10 08:44 PM Re: Healthcare Reform [Re: Petrosianic]
Ken Offline
Ninja

Registered: 02/01/05
Loc: Canada
That's 12 trill is just under 39,000 US/person. We're about 15,000 US/person for debt.

Canada was in danger of being invaded. But we kicked their butts and burnt down their political center (twice). You'd think they would have learned that invading a sovereign country puts them in danger and is expensive to boot. wink

Ed...just saw your link. Thanks.
_________________________
Accomplishing the impossible means only that the boss will add it to your regular duties.--Doug Larson

Top
Page 50 of 65 < 1 2 ... 48 49 50 51 52 ... 64 65 >


Who's Online
0 registered (), 33 Guests
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Featured Member
Registered: 09/20/06
Latest Posts
This is so hard
by South Coast Kevin
05/17/13 04:08 AM
Can top level chess be without controversy?
by South Coast Kevin
05/17/13 03:57 AM
The Young Magnus Carlsen
by Mentat Advisor
05/11/13 10:40 AM
US Championship Underway
by supergrobi
05/05/13 05:37 PM