Oh Ken, Ken, Ken, you are guilty of the *very same thing* that you accused me of when I used to post in the "Global Warming" thread, in that, you are over-generalizing and commenting on things that you **know very little about.**

Pray tell, Kenny boy, just how many evangelical, Bible preaching, Bible believing churches have you been to in the United States, anyway?!

For a person like yourself who admittedly attends church very seldom anymore, please try not to come across as some sort of an "expert" as to just why that you "broad-brush" all churches as being so very "flawed" in your *not so expert* opinion.

And finally, Ken, before I go, I just wanted to comment very briefly here on another "non-Bible-knowing" gem of yours where you are giving your so-called "commentary" on something, (the Bible), that you *certainly do NOT know nearly as much about as you think that you do*:


Hmmm..., yes, Ken, your quote above was, it appears to me, spoken from your hard heart of un-saved un-belief.

So, let us just see what the Word of God, (the Bible), really DOES have to say to counter your un-believing "commentary" in your quote above:

Here in the Gospel of John, Jesus was hanging on the cross in the process of dying for the sins of man-kind.

At the end there, the Bible says:


Gee, Ken, it looks to me as though Jesus said, "It is finished!"


And, here in the Gospel of Matthew, it reads:



Also, here in the Gospel of Mark, it reads:



And, finally, it says here in the Gospel of Luke:



Hmmm, now again, Ken, what was that again where you said that it was "almost certainly NOT a loud shout" that Jesus gave when He died upon the cross?!


Chess Fan

That's great, Chess Fan, and I praise God for all the learning and growth in Christlikeness that you have experienced through preaching that you have listened to. Just speaking for myself, I often find that preaching does not change me as much as wrestling with the Bible and other books on my own or in a small group. For example, I've learnt so much from chewing over The Divine Conspiracy and The Sacred Romance.


With respect, I think you are confusing not having a very deep understanding of the Bible with not having the same view as you on certain elements of the Bible and the Christian faith.


I wouldn't describe most of what Jesus did with his followers as preaching, though. He did things like heal people, and then sent his followers off to do the same. They lived together for 3 years, so that the disciples could see how Jesus ordered his life - how he got up early in the morning to pray, for example. As I see it, most of the preaching in the New Testament (both from Jesus and from others like Paul) was to a mixed audience of believers, interested people and those who were outright hostile to Jesus / Christianity. The pattern for groups of believers as laid out in the New Testament does not seem to include a lot of preaching in the way that our church meetings these days do.

Thanks for sharing your experiences, Ken. May I ask how come you never settled in one church yourself? Did you never find anywhere that really felt like home?


Ah, a man after my own heart! Your last sentence there particularly resonates with me. I think it's crystal clear from the New Testament that all Christians have skills / gifts / talents to bring for the strengthening of the church. A phrase I'm seeing in my reading about emerging church is the 'CEO model' - how so many churches look very much like businesses; with a pastor / CEO, a management structure for staff, a building, set ways of doing things... But should churches be like companies? And if not, what should they be like?

Kevin/Ken/Chess Fan/others,

I'm going to introduce to you guys an Indian Pastor, and his name is Rev Paul Dawnson. His audio messages, roughly 45 min duration, are posted every Sunday in his website. I will post the link here. Truths which make you live a sickness free life You will find the message under sermon of the week or if you visit next week you will find it under the list of messages. You can choose to listen other messages as well from the list. There is a Tamil interpretation by his wife, but the pastor speaks in English, so, you guys shouldn't have too much of a problem in following. He is zealous for God. I started to listen to him only for just more than a year and every week I would listen to him. I found his messages to be different and I got new understanding of the word of God. And his messages are not to be just kept in paper but to be applied in day-to-day life in every situation you and I might come across. I hope his teachings give new understanding to you as well and clear some of your doubts. Listen at your own risk, your life will be transformed!

Ken, if you are looking for a novel Christian experience, try a Greek Orthodox church. Wear comfortable shoes, as there tends to be no pews in Orthodox churches.

Ed, does that mean I can lie on the floor then? I was in the habit of sitting down whenever we had to stand for more than 5 minutes.

Pirc: thanks for the link. I haven't listened yet, but I'm guessing this is a person telling us what a Christian is rather than showing us what a Christian is (which is what Jesus did).


The reply to that is in the next [paraphrased] quote...
Just, wow. The original quote was written without a trace of irony. Project much? Insecure much? Because...

Exactly. He taught. Teaching includes showing by example, living day-by-day with his disciples, with friends and enemies alike. Look at the number of sermons (preaching) compared to the number of teaching sessions. Teaching is done by words, by actions, by example, not by words alone, once a week, standing up at the front. Also, when he did talk compare the wisdom of his answers for those who were trying to trap him, to the answers of some of those who claim to be Christians, much to the detriment of the reputation of Christianity. They are a parody, and think they know what Christianity is about because they know a series of verses (often taken out of context) to quote for a variety of situations. They're still suckling milk.



On the contrary, all of them felt like home. I liked different things about each one. I'd move on because by this time I had friends (from Bible College, and from attending regularly) in almost all of the churches, and I'd get a yearning to go see what they and their church were up to. Looking back, it occurs to me I was just meeting with different believers, in different 'homes'...more like the early Christian model.

My friends settled because they had families and wanted stability for them (and for themselves I assume). I didn't need that stability...for me the stability came in meeting with people with different backgrounds, and seeing things through their eyes.

Understanding other people and being able to see their viewpoint is a big part of Christianity. As CF demonstrates any view that is different from his is deficient in some way. Given his limitations, that means he'll be at odds with most people, and not knowing how to deal with that or understand others, he alienates them.

And to the relief of an adoring public, here once again is our Bible Verse of the Moment TM

I'd make sure they have their service in English first, or you'll wonder what it going on along with having sore feet.

Or try an OCA (Orthodox Church in America) or Antiochian Parish. At least at those, the service should be in English.

Mark.

I can second this. (I'm a little biased though, I converted to Orthodoxy this year :P)

If you find an OCA affiliated church the services should be in english

Hey WN,

As a cradle Orthodox (OCA), I would love to hear of your conversion. I'm always interested in people's exposure to and thougths of their first experience with the Orthodox faith.

PM me (or post here) anytime if you're interested is sharing.

Mark.