Taking the hint of Guy Kerr, I'm opening a new thread on defenses to 1. P-Q4. I like the Gruenfeld myself; it is difficult for White to avoid and the strategical ideas are clear cut. It's main drawback is its complexity; the virtue and the vice are the same.

I've been searching for an easier way to defend, so if anyone has ideas, I'm open to suggestion.

I started out by playing systems with early ...P-QB3 vs. both 1. P-K4 and 1. P-Q4, thus the Slav (Caro-Kann reverse respectively). I found the Slav somewhat difficult strategically and became fascinated by the many beautiful Semi-Slav lines (in which strategy can take a back seat to tactical melees), but there's just too much theory.

I've lately been studying the Chigorin, which is probably unsound at high levels, but is hard for White to avoid and is making me learn to play some unfamiliar but interesting types of positions.

The best defense to 1. P-Q4 is to learn algebraic.

Yeah, I don't like DN, but thought I'd go along with Ed. Also, there's an older guy in my club who "only speaks DN" and I occasionally have to use it.

Guy, I've fiddled with the Tchigorin. It's kind of like a blue-eyed redhead: no matter how many times you vow to stay away, you get lured back. I think it is the iconoclastic nature of playing ...N-QB3 in front of the queen's bishop pawn. Rather the same allure as the Guimard in the French Tarrasch.

"Iconoclastic" is definitely the word for the Chigorin. It can really shock opponents.

Have you ever seen Jacques Mieses' Tchigorin Counter Gambits? After 3. N-QB3 or 3. N-KB3, Black plays 3...P-K4. Not great, but liberating in a mid-life crisis sort of way--rather again like a blue-eyed redhead....or a petite brunette with a sassy haircut and spike heels...

I've looked at 3. Nc3 e5, which doesn't seem worth playing.
3. Nf3 e5 appears more playable, but I don't really trust it and have been studying more "standard" Chigorin continuations. One can only devote so much time to oddball lines...

True. Studying oddball lines are like dating married women: not worth the rare return on investment.

I've always had an affection for the line 3. N-KB3 B-N5, 4. PxP BxN, 5. PxN BxQBP. There's something pretty about the bishop on that square.

Yeah, the oddball lines above (3. Nf(c)3 e5) suffer from a frequent drawback of weird lines (Latvian Gambit is a slightly imperfect analogy): White has to be very compliant to allow Black to enter the sharp fighting lines, when he can get pleasant positions by playing simple natural moves.

I agree that the variation with the backwards Bishop recapture on c6 is pretty. I'm surprised that it occurs often, and don't expect to see it OTB, as I'd expect most White players to go for the Bishop pair.

I ssupect that the reason lies in the desire to keep the pawn structure intact. After 5. NPxB leaves White with a bit of a shot clog on the kingside, while 5. KPxB QxP leaves White with a very weak isolated queen's pawn.

In this discussion

http://www.chessninja.com/boards/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=153201#Post153201

...we (or at least I) concluded that there were three basic categories of KP defenses. 1) Defenses that sought to challenge K5 and White's KP, 2) Defenses that sought to challenge Q5, and 3) Hypermodern defenses that challenged neither one immediately.


There's not as much variation in the QP openings. The three most popular replies, 1...P-Q4, 1...N-KB3, and 1...P-KB4, all seek to do the same thing: challenge the K5 square. 1...P-Q4 is the QP equivalent of 1...P-K4, and the Dutch is the mirror image of the Sicilian.

1...N-KB3 is the mirror image of the Nimzovich Defense, except this time, the Knight actually does prevent the pawn from going to the 4th rank immediately. This is also why 1...N-KB3 is more popular than 1...P-Q4. Black can conceal his intentions longer. He can either choose to play it like a double QP opening, and continue trying to challenge the K5 square. Or he can play it like a hypermodern defense (King's Indian, et cetera), let White build the center, and then counter-attack it. After 1. P-Q4 N-KB3 2. P-QB4 P-K3 3. N-QB3, Black can either go for something more hypermodern, with B-N5, or he can transpose straight into the QGD with 3...P-Q4. But White was kept guessing longer than if he'd played 1...P-Q4 on the first move.

But QP equivalents to the French/Caro-Kann/Center Counter are few. The only major QP opening geared around the idea of immediately challenging White's QP is the Benoni, and even that challenges it with a wing pawn, rather than a central one. Some lines in the King's and Old Indian are geared around trying to get ...P-K4 in, but not as early as move 2. (And I'm not counting the Englund, aka Garbage Gambit, with 1...P-K4 as a major opening).

Actually no. I'm forgetting the Budapest Defense, which, though not seen all that often, is a playable, legitimate opening (a lot more than the Englund Gambit, at least), and based on the idea of challenging White's central pawn with one of your own on Move 2. But the advance isn't pawn-supported (as in the French or Caro-Kann), or even piece-supported as in the Center Counter. Black ends up either gambitting the pawn outright, or recovering it with Knight gymnastics of the kind seen in the Alekhine or Nimzovich Defenses.

You do, every so often, in club play, see the QP mirror of the French, after 1. P-Q4 P-Q3 2. P-K4 P-K4. It's very rare, of course, since Black loses the castling privilege after 3. PxP PxP 4. QxQch. I think the idea behind it is either that Black is terrified of a higher rated player and desperate to get to an endgame even if it means incurring a few disadvantages along the way. Or Black is higher rated and confident of being able to outplay his opponent in the ending. I had a higher-rated player play it against me in Germany once (it ended up a draw), and have seen it lots of times in blitz games.


The QP equivalent of the Caro is unheard of. After 1. P-Q4 P-KB3 2. P-K4 P-K4, would follow 3. PxP PxP 4. Q-R5ch. It's like a Damiano, except that White doesn't even have to give up a piece for his fun. I would name that opening the Caro-Kan't.

I think the lesser variety of the queen's pawn opening is partly the result of the asymmetry of the board, and partly the result of depth perception. As you look a few moves later one sees more variety, e.g. 1...N-KB3, 2...P-KN3 leads to King's Indian, Gruenfeld and Benoni lines, while 2...P-K3 can lead to Queen's Gambits and Benoni lines. There a defense I've always wanted to play (the Manhattan Defense) but it's hard to get the move order to happen.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the real choices in the queen's pawn defenses come later than they do in the king's pawn defenses.

That's because White (generally) wants to advance both central pawns two squares. But P-K4 is the harder of the two to play, since it hasn't got the Queen behind it. So it's easier to play P-Q4 after having played P-K4 than the other way around.

Orthodox Queens Gambit: Tartakover variation.
It's impenetrable.

The advance of the two center pawns is a desiderata of both sides, but White's extra tempo allows him to get there first. Yet given the weakness of the king's pawn, perhaps that isn't a good thing.

One oddball line that currently has me intrigue is 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 e5!?!? Mainly, I am trying to find a the best moves for white and black, since I am a 1.d4 player and also play the slav as black.

The Winawer Gambit...I did some study of that for postal chess. IIRC, it's been regarded as favorable for White ever since Kasparov-Nikolic, Manila (ol) 1992. There's analysis in lots of books, e.g. NCO. It might work OTB if White isn't booked up, though.

OTOH, the version from the Slav Exchange, i.e. 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. cd cd 4. Nc3 e5!?, gives Black excellent compensation. I've played it in postal (my best-ever win, though White's play could be criticized...).

How's about posting the game, Guy?

OK, Ed.
Here's a try from memory and with no board around...I'll correct it later if necessary. I liked the game because of the sacs, though White really didn't play overly well.

JD - GK, USCF Golden Knights '97 Semifinals
1. c4 c6
2. Nc3 d5
3. c:d5 c:d5
4. d4 e5!?
5. d:e5 d4
6. Ne4 Qa5+
7. Nd2 Nc6
8. Nf3 Nh6 (I think Tal once played Nge7 here, but what the heck)
9. Qc2?! Bf5
10. Qb3 Bb4
11. a3?! Rc8
12. h3?! O-O (White seems determined not to develop )
13. e3 d:e3
14. f:e3 Be6
15. Qd3 N:e5 (After long thought I decided to invite complications. 15...Rfd8 would be almost automatic OTB)
16. N:e5 Rfd8
17. Nc6!? R:c6 (White can hardly survive complications with his Kingside effectively still in the box)
18. a:b4 Qc7
19. Qb1 Ba2! (spectacular but obvious)
20. Q:a2 R:c1+
21. Ke2 R:d2+
22. Kg1 R:g2+ (the sac immediately comes to mind, but the follow-up took a long time to calculate)
23. K:g2 Nf5!!
24. Rg1 (forced) Nh4+
25. Kh1 Qc6+
26. Kh2 Rc2+ (White resigned due to a long forced mate on the b8 square)
0-1

[Late edit] Make that 21. Kf2 above.

This is a nice game by Guy.

1. c4 c6 2. Nc3 d5 3. c:d5 c:d5 4. d4 e5!? Hereinafter the "Quebec Trailer Park Counter-Gambit." 5. d:e5 Okay, a question. Is there a good way to decline this? 5. Nf3 is bad. There's no good move with the dark-square bishop. That leaves 5. e3 and 5. e4. The former renews the threat of winning the pawn without giving Black compensation; after 5. e3 e:d4 6. e:d4 White retains his first tempo advantage. The latter offers up a counter pawn sacrifice of dubious utility. It seems to me that the capture is logically forced. 5...d4
6. Ne4 Qa5+ 7. Nd2 Maybe White should play 7.Bd2, so after 7...Q:e5 8. Nf3 he converts his extra pawn into extra tempi. 7...Nc6 8. Nf3 Nh6 (I think Tal once played Nge7 here, but what the heck) 9. Qc2?! Perhaps White has a better plan here in 9. g3, 10 Bg2, 11. 0-0. This move simply loses a tempo. 10. Qb3 at once attacks the b pawn. 9... Bf5 10. Qb3 Bb4A nice move. I don't know why I like it, I just do. Something about the placing of the bishop seems right. It's an intuitive thing I cannot give any analysis for. 11. a3?! Rc8 [/i][b] Another nice move revealing the pseudo-threat of 11. a3. [b][/i]12. h3?! O-O (White seems determined not to develop ) 13. e3 d:e3 14. f:e3 White now has doubloons on the open e-file. His extra pawn sits on e3. 14...Be6 15. Qd3 N:e5 (After long thought I decided to invite complications. 15...Rfd8 would be almost automatic OTB) 16. N:e5 Rfd8 17. Nc6!? A nice try if nothing else. 17... R:c6 (White can hardly survive complications with his Kingside effectively still in the box) 18. a:b4 Qc7 19. Qb1 Ba2! (spectacular but obvious) Oh piffle! This is a nice combination and you should be justly proud of it. 20. Q:a2 R:c1+ 21. Kf2 R:d2+ 22. Kg1 Fleeing from the Cylon Tyranny...[b] 22...R:g2+ (the sac immediately comes to mind, but the follow-up took a long time to calculate) 23. K:g2 Nf5!! 24. Rg1 (forced) Nh4+
25. Kh1 Qc6+ 26. Kh2 Rc2+ (White resigned due to a long forced mate on the b8 square)
0-1

Thanks, Ed. I can't tell you how many hours I spent analyzing Black's 15th and the sequence following Black's 22nd. But it was a lot...

Years later I fed the game into a computer, which played 15...N:e5 immediately (a bit sobering). But it didn't suggest 22...R:g2+. Perhaps the mate was beyond the horizon. I wonder if modern computers, e.g. Rybka, would find that sac.

The gambit I played is treated in books. At the time of the game, Markov and Schipkov's Winning with the Slav (not a great book, kind of a database dump) recommended it and gave some game references, including Dzindzi-Tal, NY (rapid) 1990. Since then NCO rates it highly.

Ed, good point about Bd2. I'll address that for now (maybe more re. acceptance of gambit later).

After Bd2, Black takes ...QxP and White has to retreat Ng3 before kicking the Queen with Nf3. It looks like White will have trouble getting any opening advantage. All the games I saw had Ne4-d2 blocking the check. An advantage of Ne4-d2 is that if Black immediately recaptures ...QxP, White straightaway kicks the Queen with Ng1-f3 and subsequently can pressure the d-pawn with Nd2-b3.

OTOH, Black doesn't have to check with the Queen. Sadler (see below) gives a Tozer-Levitt, London 1993 game: 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. cd cd 4. Nc3 e5 5. de d4 6. Ne4 Nc6 7. Nf3 Bf5 8. Ng3 Bg6 9. a3 Bc5 10. Qb3 Nge7 with compensation.

But let's backtrack to the more common Winawer Gambit (with pawns still on c4 and c6). Everyone blocked the check with the Knight until Garry Kimovich's 1992 gambit-bust, which went 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nc3 e5 4. de d4 5. Ne4 Qa5+ 6. Bd2! Q:e5 7. Ng3! Qd6 (7...c5 is analyzed to plus-over-equal for White)8. Nf3 Nf6 9. Qc2 Be7 10. O-O-O! O-O [punctuation from Matthew Sadler's Slav book, which has discussion of the gambit with and without the exchange on d5]. Garry subsequently worked up a Kingside attack and won in fine form.

But without the c-pawns, long castling looks dangerous for White and Black can play ...Nc6. This may be why the gambit's better when White exchanges c-pawns.

[Disclaimer: I haven't kept up with Winawer Gambit theory, so perhaps there have been Black improvements, but I wouldn't play it without analysis/research.]

"After Bd2, Black takes ...QxP and White has to retreat Ng3 before kicking the Queen with Nf3. It looks like White will have trouble getting any opening advantage. All the games I saw had Ne4-d2 blocking the check. An advantage of Ne4-d2 is that if Black immediately recaptures ...QxP, White straightaway kicks the Queen with Ng1-f3 and subsequently can pressure the d-pawn with Nd2-b3."

After the queen check and Bd2, then ...Qxe5 hits the hanging knight. Because of this may ....d4, Nb1 is better. I fail to see the good of the knight on e4. It looks useless to me.

FWIW, Ed, I looked up some positions on Chesslab.com (free database) and just about anything is playable. The gambit's been declined with both 5. e3 and 5. Nf3. Blocking the Queen check with Bd2 seems to lead to quite interesting play. Even 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. cd cd 4. Nc3 e5 5. de d4 6. Ne4 Qa5+ 7. Bd2 Q:e5 8. Ng5!? looks interesting (this is also in my old ECO, see below).

There's also some treatment in my old volume of ECO D, albeit under the pointless (why would White trade on d5 here?) move order 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nc3 e5 4. cd cd.

Wow. 8. Ng5? Can't Black just kick it with 8...h6, leading to a traffic jam on the kingside?