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Max Online: 351 @ 11/12/12 04:51 PM
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#162167 - 04/13/12 10:48 PM Re: Politics 2 [Re: Petrosianic]
Ed Yetman, III Offline
Ninja

Registered: 12/08/04
Loc: Tucson, Arizona
I had to take a friend to the hospital emergency ward last Saturday. He's developed dementia, and has no family here to care for him, so I've been busy.

I'll comment when I get a chance.
_________________________
Ed Yetman, III
YetmanBrothers.com

"I will not be pushed, passed, isolated, blockaded, doubled, undoubled, or promoted!"--The Pawn.

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#162184 - 04/19/12 09:41 AM Re: Politics 2 [Re: Ed Yetman, III]
Petrosianic Online   happy
Ninja

Registered: 08/31/04
Loc: Doo-Wah-Diddy, Mississippi
On the oft-bandied idea of whether you gain or lose revenue by raising tax rates, here's something from Dick Morris on that, that I'd like to toss out for comment. But take note that he's talking only about capital gains rates here, not tax rates in general.

Quote:
• When Reagan cut the capital gains tax from 28% to 20% in 1981, capital gains tax revenues rose from $12.5 billion under the old 28% rate to $18.7 billion under the 20% rate. The rate dropped by a third and revenues rose by a third.

• Then, when Reagan bowed to liberal pressure and put the rate back up to 28%, revenues from the capital gains tax fell from $328 billion to $112 billion. The tax had risen by eight points but revenues had dropped by two-thirds.

• And, in 1996, when Clinton cut the rate back down to 20%, tax collections from the capital gains levy rose from $66 billion to an average of $100 billion over the next four years. More important, the capital gains tax cut stimulated investment and capital gains. Under the higher tax rate, in 1996, there were $261 billion in capital gains in the U.S. In the three years after the cut, the total of capital gains rose to an annual average of $440 billion.

So the Buffett Rule makes no economic sense and won’t do anything to cut the budget deficit. In fact, it will probably cost us revenue.
_________________________
"I brought the Atom Bomb. I think it's a good time to use it." -- Dr. Richard Gordon, King Dinosaur

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#162187 - 04/19/12 10:47 PM Re: Politics 2 [Re: Petrosianic]
Ed Yetman, III Offline
Ninja

Registered: 12/08/04
Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Just a drive-by: do not be surprised if Santorum wins big on Tuesday. He's still on the ballot, and without Romney burying him with negative advertising it is possible that he may win several very low turnout races. Romney doesn't have a core of diehard supporters, but he does have a core of diehard haters.
_________________________
Ed Yetman, III
YetmanBrothers.com

"I will not be pushed, passed, isolated, blockaded, doubled, undoubled, or promoted!"--The Pawn.

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#162188 - 04/20/12 06:06 AM Re: Politics 2 [Re: Ed Yetman, III]
South Coast Kevin Moderator Offline
King

Registered: 12/02/06
Loc: Southampton, England
Petrosianic - I wonder what happened to the amount of income tax paid in the time period you're talking about. There's been a big issue in the UK with self-employed people like IT consultants setting up a company through which they get paid, thereby exposing their earnings to corporation tax rather than income tax. If the two tax rates are similar this isn't worth doing, but as corporation tax becomes lower than income tax then it becomes more and more worthwhile.

The Labour candidate for Mayor of London, Ken Livingstone, has just got in to trouble about this (sample article here) - he made some comments about rich people dodging tax and it turns out he does this very thing...
_________________________
I blog about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and anything else that interests me. Have a read if you're interested too!

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#162189 - 04/20/12 05:09 PM Re: Politics 2 [Re: South Coast Kevin]
spock Offline
Ninja

Registered: 06/02/03
Loc: South Dakota, USA
I forget what all is classified as a "capital gain." I know profits from stock sales are included, but does that include dividends? I think Warren Buffett makes primarily dividend income so I think dividend income is taxed as capital gains.

But Morris is wrong if he points to higher capital gains representing more actual investment. It could simply represent more short-term trading. Especially in years when capital gains rates are due to increase the following year.

If dividends are taxed as capital gains then increased capital gains simply represents corporations choosing to pay out dividends rather than reinvesting profits in R&D, plant & equipment, or buying out smaller companies. That is, less investing, not more.
_________________________
When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?
--John Maynard Keynes

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#162191 - 04/20/12 05:23 PM Re: Politics 2 [Re: South Coast Kevin]
spock Offline
Ninja

Registered: 06/02/03
Loc: South Dakota, USA
Originally Posted By: South Coast Kevin
Petrosianic - I wonder what happened to the amount of income tax paid in the time period you're talking about. There's been a big issue in the UK with self-employed people like IT consultants setting up a company through which they get paid, thereby exposing their earnings to corporation tax rather than income tax. If the two tax rates are similar this isn't worth doing, but as corporation tax becomes lower than income tax then it becomes more and more worthwhile.


Exactly. When it comes to tax rates you cannot do just one thing. People will, if able, change their income sources. Corporations have lots of options for re-categorizing money.

At one time corporations preferred to pay interest on bonds rather than dividends on stock because of favorable tax rules. When paying dividends became more favorable there were less bonds issued and more dividends paid--with less bond interest paid. (Morris doesn't include levels of corporate debt in his "analysis.")

I don't actually know what the correct tax rates for any given source of income would be, but you cannot consider any particular rate in isolation.

You need to find some means of balancing tax rates to get an appropriate mix of interest payments, dividend payments, and short-term stock trading activity.
_________________________
When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?
--John Maynard Keynes

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#162192 - 04/20/12 07:14 PM Re: Politics 2 [Re: spock]
Ed Yetman, III Offline
Ninja

Registered: 12/08/04
Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Morris's argument is a classic fallacy of causal oversimplificaton.

Ken Livingstone? I thought he was dead. Doesn't the Labour party have anyone else to offer?
_________________________
Ed Yetman, III
YetmanBrothers.com

"I will not be pushed, passed, isolated, blockaded, doubled, undoubled, or promoted!"--The Pawn.

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#162193 - 04/20/12 11:47 PM Re: Politics 2 [Re: Ed Yetman, III]
spock Offline
Ninja

Registered: 06/02/03
Loc: South Dakota, USA
Originally Posted By: Ed Yetman, III
Morris's argument is a classic fallacy of causal oversimplificaton.


One of these days I need to track down a list with the names of fallacies. Would make my contributions much more concise.
_________________________
When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?
--John Maynard Keynes

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#162194 - 04/21/12 08:28 AM Re: Politics 2 [Re: spock]
spock Offline
Ninja

Registered: 06/02/03
Loc: South Dakota, USA
And look at what I stumbled upon this morning.
_________________________
When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?
--John Maynard Keynes

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#162195 - 04/21/12 03:29 PM Re: Politics 2 [Re: spock]
Ken Offline
Ninja

Registered: 02/01/05
Loc: Canada
That's good! I've downloaded it. Probably be a handy one to place into a tablet/iPad for quick reference.

On a previous topic about Khan academy--it is now an app for iPad (free) if anyone is interested.
_________________________
Accomplishing the impossible means only that the boss will add it to your regular duties.--Doug Larson

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