Says the man who told me to stop learning my science off the internet. Who didn't bother to tell me what was wrong with my explanation. Who, when challenged, said he wasn't interested in debating methods. Who then repeatedly challenges evolution as "not science" based on methods.

In what manner was my judgement of your lack of expertise incorrect?



I did explain my position earlier when you tried to claim intelligent design as logical and scientific. You've done neither, you keep trying to get someone to put forth the scientific evidences for evolution.

Since you have already rejected anything the scientific community has to say on the subject what is the point of offering further evidence?

Finally, your repeated link to the Menton post is unfortunate. Menton has completely misconstrued the meaning of "observable" in a manner that disqualifies most sciences as sciences. In addition, as a 20 year old source, the information is out of date.

Modern biology looks very different from pre-evolutionary biology. Looking at the truly magnificent advances in biology, medicine, and other related disciplines demonstrates the truth of evolution. Advances that simply could not have been made in the absence of evolution.



You are not actually qualified to examine the evidence. You have already rejected all the the evidence that could imaginably be presented, except possible from religious sources. So here is a pastor who builds his faith on evolution.



Sigh, will you actually read any of this?

http://www.amazon.com/Greatest-Show-Eart...8821&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/Why-Evolution-True...8873&sr=1-6

Is this proving evolution or marketing evolution?
Now pulling a pastor into this makes it sound like evolution as faith!
20 year old source from Menton is outdated means what about centuries old Darwin's?!
Anyway I don't have time and energy to buy and read those evolution books.

The advances were made because of our understanding of evolution. In the absence of that understanding, or if evolution were in fact false, these advances would not have been made.

That is, belief in an intelligent designer means that modern medicine never occurs. Only because of the truth of evolution could these advances have been made.

You are welcome to try and explain how biology or medicine could have advanced in the absence of an understanding of evolution.




Sigh. The pastor takes the fact of evolution and develops a superior understanding of Christianity and faith based on that fact.



Evolutionary theory has been updated and revised over the years. If you take Darwin's writings to be the final word on the subject of evolution you would be badly mistaken.



No libraries where you live?

This is what I mean when I described you as a dishonest discussant. You are not interested in learning about or understanding evolution. You are only interested in repeating quasi-religious complaints you've heard elsewhere in defense of your theological views.

An honest discussant would make time to read one or both of those books. Books which address the very questions you repeated many, many times. Questions which you clearly did not anticipate having answered. Now that sources addressing your questions are provided you have lost interest.

Pirc, you might like to read books on evolution by outspoken evangelical believers who are scientists (Francis Collins and Kenneth Miller) if you don't want to read Dawkins or Coyne.

Finding Darwin's God

The Language of God

Only a Theory

If you don't have time or energy to read books on the subject, that's fair--we certainly can't read and educate ourselves on every topic. However, if that is the case then perhaps you would consider not commenting on this topic because you don't understand the basics. It is similar to having a person who doesn't know the rules of chess contradict the numerous GMs when they discuss the games of Anand. e.g. "Anand should have moved his pawn back to the start when it was threatened--how could he miss that...he's supposed to be good at this game".

By all means ask honest questions--that is how you learn some of the basics or find guidance/clarification on issues you don't fully understand.

Thread resurrection time - I've got to share this quotation about evolution-creationism debates:


It's originally from a reader's review on Amazon but was quoted on Twitter this week by Richard Dawkins. He's been invited to speak at a literary festival in the Scottish Western Isles and a Christian denomination that's strong there isn't happy. More details here.

Ken, saw spock's post but didn't see your post that time. wow its 3 months since then. Anyway good luck with your reading and acquiring evolutionary knowledge!

I've read those books, several times now, and just read Miller's again two weeks ago. Miller and Collins are both conservative Christians and both are scientists. I'd suggest starting with Collins first as he seems to be the better writer (IMO). Miller is more informal, chatty, not as concise in getting to the point, but he's still good.

Here is a list of other books I own and have read (there are still others I have read but don't own)

Climbing Mount Improbable
Endless Forms Most Beautiful
Evolution: 1st 4 billion years
Evolution: Its Collapse in View?
Evolution: The Fossils say No
Evolution: What the fossils say and why it matters
Finding Darwin's God
Life Ascending
On the Origin of Species
Only a Theory
Origin of Species Illustrated Edition
Structure and Theory of Evolutionary Thought
The Ancestor's Tale
The Blind Watchmaker
The Bone Peddlers
The Evolution of Man
The Great Evolution Mystery
The Greatest Show on Earth
The Making of the Fittest
The Reluctant Mr. Darwin
The Tangled Bank
Why Evolution is True
Works of Charles Darwin
Beak of the Finch
Island Biogeography

I list these to make a couple of points.

1. Some of those are from young earth creationists. I familiarize myself with their writings and at one time in my life, I believed what they said. I now know they have misrepresented pretty much every scientific finding, and I know that because I read the actual scientific findings myself and compared those to what they claimed it said. So it is important to read what the scientists are really saying, not what someone without a scientific background claims they are saying.

2. Despite me having read all of these works, I still don't feel like I know enough on the subject. I still run into ideas that I don't understand. I still have to struggle to follow some online (scientific) discussions. That people who haven't read any of this material can be so vocal in their opposition to this material (which they haven't read and which they don't understand) is what makes SCK's quote truer than is comfortable.

Wow.. it will probably take a lifetime for me to finish those books given my reading skills. I have a couple of technical and non-technical books to finish though before I try one of these.

I understand that...so many books, so little time. But when your schedule does clear up, try Collins or Miller if your interests take you that direction (my interests keep getting hijacked by new interests so I have a backlog).

Here's a new evolution textbook by well-known writer Carl Zimmer along with textbook publisher Douglas Emlen. That'll have to go on my wish list with the price tag of $100 or more. The first chapter is free to download as an app for Apple products, and apparently they'll be offering up each chapter for a price. If that is considerably cheaper, I may go that route.

I did enjoy the first chapter although the media-enhanced options don't offer anything above what a picture would. E.g. when talking about dolphins, you can see a clip of dolphins jumping out of the water; a taxonomic diagram is reproduced but in short sections (you can get the same effect by placing a piece of paper over the textbook diagram and moving it slowly down the page...or just looking at it for that matter). So might look nice, but doesn't offer any new teaching value over what is already there.

There was one link though that was fantastic...they quoted Theodosius Dobzhansky (evolutionary biologist, Russian Orthodox Christian) "Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution"--a quote reproduced in countless textbooks world-wide and known to pretty much every biologist. From there they linked to his original article which I'd never read myself, where he makes a case for religion and science not being mutually exclusive. That link was a good example of how to greatly enhance the educational value of a textbook.