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#162662 - 05/25/12 03:59 PM Anand-Gelfand Game 11
proloy Ninja Registered: 03/20/03 Loc: Hyderabad	If Gelfand does not lose this one, he'll be the only participant of recent world championship match history never to trail in it. _________________________ The fellow who thinks he knows it all is especially annoying to those of us who do.
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#162663 - 05/25/12 04:15 PM Re: Anand-Gelfand Game 11 [Re: proloy]
Petrosianic Ninja Registered: 08/31/04 Loc: Doo-Wah-Diddy, Mississippi	Isn't this the only recent championship match, period? _________________________ "I brought the Atom Bomb. I think it's a good time to use it." -- Dr. Richard Gordon, King Dinosaur
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#162664 - 05/25/12 04:26 PM Re: Anand-Gelfand Game 11 [Re: Petrosianic]
proloy Ninja Registered: 03/20/03 Loc: Hyderabad	I meant each of Kasparov, Kramnik, Anand, Topalov, and Leko have trailed in a world championship match. Only Gelfand hasn't. _________________________ The fellow who thinks he knows it all is especially annoying to those of us who do.
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#162665 - 05/25/12 05:34 PM Re: Anand-Gelfand Game 11 [Re: proloy]
Petrosianic Ninja Registered: 08/31/04 Loc: Doo-Wah-Diddy, Mississippi	Oh. Well, that's something, I guess. He still has to actually beat Anand to achieve this record. _________________________ "I brought the Atom Bomb. I think it's a good time to use it." -- Dr. Richard Gordon, King Dinosaur
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#162666 - 05/25/12 07:24 PM Re: Anand-Gelfand Game 11 [Re: Petrosianic]
proloy Ninja Registered: 03/20/03 Loc: Hyderabad	Why does he have to beat him? Obtaining a draw tomorrow will get him the record. _________________________ The fellow who thinks he knows it all is especially annoying to those of us who do.
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#162671 - 05/26/12 07:12 AM Re: Anand-Gelfand Game 11 [Re: proloy]
proloy Ninja Registered: 03/20/03 Loc: Hyderabad	Sems like the first time in this match that Anand has succeeded in springing a surprise on Gelfand. He's thinking on move 9. He's been thinking for ten minutes. _________________________ The fellow who thinks he knows it all is especially annoying to those of us who do.
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#162672 - 05/26/12 07:23 AM Re: Anand-Gelfand Game 11 [Re: proloy]
proloy Ninja Registered: 03/20/03 Loc: Hyderabad	Shipov's commentary here: http://www.chessintranslation.com/live-game/ Svidler is doing excellent commentary on the official site. Gelfand thinking for twenty minutes now. A dynamically balanced game would probably be what Anand would be looking for now. Without simplification. So that the time advantage could ultimately count. _________________________ The fellow who thinks he knows it all is especially annoying to those of us who do.
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#162673 - 05/26/12 08:04 AM Re: Anand-Gelfand Game 11 [Re: proloy]
proloy Ninja Registered: 03/20/03 Loc: Hyderabad	Looks like Anand has stumped him. Gelfand has lots of aggressive options, except that he doesn't know which ones black has already refuted in preparation. He'll have to work it out on the board, which means a very difficult job ahead. Gelfand already looks to be agonized. However, Anand mustn't relax too much -- Kramnik-Leko Marshall game comes to mind easily. _________________________ The fellow who thinks he knows it all is especially annoying to those of us who do.
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#162674 - 05/26/12 08:44 AM Re: Anand-Gelfand Game 11 [Re: proloy]
proloy Ninja Registered: 03/20/03 Loc: Hyderabad	The most uncomfortable choice for Anand now. In this kind of position he'd love to retain his queen, but Gelfand is inviting an exchange here. _________________________ The fellow who thinks he knows it all is especially annoying to those of us who do.
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#162675 - 05/26/12 09:48 AM Re: Anand-Gelfand Game 11 [Re: proloy]
Avalon Rook Registered: 02/20/08 Loc: Washington, DC	I can't believe I got up early on a Saturday for this. Tal Memorial can't come soon enough! _________________________ I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation.
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#162677 - 05/26/12 12:32 PM Re: Anand-Gelfand Game 11 [Re: Avalon]
Petrosianic Ninja Registered: 08/31/04 Loc: Doo-Wah-Diddy, Mississippi	Here's a move count for the match so far: Code: Game 1 24 moves Game 2 25 moves Game 3 37 moves Game 4 34 moves Game 5 27 moves Game 6 27 moves Game 7 38 moves Game 8 17 moves Game 9 49 moves Game 10 24 moves Game 11 24 moves Game 12 ? Average: 29.63 I'm not sure if this is a record minimum, but if it's not, I'd like to know what the record is. Incidentally, it's not just the draws. One of the highest move averages ever, if not the highest, was Schlechter-Lasker, which came in at about 52 moves per game, as I recall. And Karpov-Korchnoi 1974 (a de facto world championship match), had 79% draws and nearly a 50 move average. In fact, the decisive games were some of the shrotest ones in that match. _________________________ "I brought the Atom Bomb. I think it's a good time to use it." -- Dr. Richard Gordon, King Dinosaur
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#162678 - 05/26/12 02:22 PM

Re: Anand-Gelfand Game 11 [Re: Petrosianic]

littlefish Online content

Ninja

Registered: 12/14/02
Loc: Vienna, Austria

It does appear to be a record minimum, although just slightly below Kasparov-Anand 1995. These are the numbers I'm getting for the previous world championships:

Code:

    Year  Games Avg.moves
 1. 1886   20   42.00
 2. 1889   17   44.82
 3. 1890   19   38.71
 4. 1892   23   36.48
 5. 1894   19   51.76
 6. 1897   17   48.88
 7. 1907   15   44.37
 8. 1908   16   51.81
 9. 1909   10   43.70
10. 1910   10   52.20
11. 1910   11   50.05
12. 1921   14   40.71
13. 1927   34   40.82
14. 1929   25   48.84
15. 1934   26   50.83
16. 1935   30   43.70
17. 1937   25   43.46
18. 1948   50   42.24
19. 1951   24   48.69
20. 1954   24   41.46
21. 1957   22   39.52
22. 1958   23   45.50
23. 1960   21   43.55
24. 1961   21   52.50
25. 1963   22   44.73
26. 1966   24   43.92
27. 1969   23   43.35
28. 1972   21   43.17
29. 1978   32   47.48
30. 1981   18   43.33
31. 1984   48   34.21
32. 1985   24   38.81
33. 1986   24   37.10
34. 1987   24   40.58
35. 1990   24   44.38
36. 1993   20   39.02
37. 1995   18   29.72
38. 2000   15   37.87
39. 2004   14   35.43
40. 2006   11   51.32
41. 2008   11   35.27
42. 2010   12   52.21

_________________________
Ninja tournament homepage
"Don't follow leaders, watch the parking meters" - Bob Dylan

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#162680 - 05/26/12 04:45 PM Re: Anand-Gelfand Game 11 [Re: littlefish]
Petrosianic Ninja Registered: 08/31/04 Loc: Doo-Wah-Diddy, Mississippi	Originally Posted By: Petrosianic One of the highest move averages ever, if not the highest, was Schlechter-Lasker, which came in at about 52 moves per game, as I recall. Originally Posted By: littlefish 10. 1910 10 52.20 Hey, hey! So I was only .2 moves off. And it looks like that is the second highest move average after Botvinnik-Tal II. For the 2006 match, are you counting the Rapids games in that average? _________________________ "I brought the Atom Bomb. I think it's a good time to use it." -- Dr. Richard Gordon, King Dinosaur
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#162681 - 05/26/12 05:20 PM Re: Anand-Gelfand Game 11 [Re: Petrosianic]
littlefish Ninja Registered: 12/14/02 Loc: Vienna, Austria	No, that's the classical games only. _________________________ Ninja tournament homepage "Don't follow leaders, watch the parking meters" - Bob Dylan
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#162682 - 05/26/12 07:02 PM Re: Anand-Gelfand Game 11 [Re: littlefish]
Petrosianic Ninja Registered: 08/31/04 Loc: Doo-Wah-Diddy, Mississippi	Littlefish, I don't know if you're running numbers through a program, or doing it the hard way, but if you can get this number easily, do you know who scored the best with Black in a championship match without becoming World Champion? _________________________ "I brought the Atom Bomb. I think it's a good time to use it." -- Dr. Richard Gordon, King Dinosaur
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#162683 - 05/26/12 08:12 PM Re: Anand-Gelfand Game 11 [Re: Petrosianic]
littlefish Ninja Registered: 12/14/02 Loc: Vienna, Austria	I have written a little program, quite easy to get out other stats about WCh matches. If I'm not mistaken Bronstein in 1951 was the only player to have a plus score as Black (6.5/12) and not win the match. Leko comes in second scoring 50% against Kramnik as Black and not winning the match. _________________________ Ninja tournament homepage "Don't follow leaders, watch the parking meters" - Bob Dylan
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#162684 - 05/26/12 09:35 PM Re: Anand-Gelfand Game 11 [Re: littlefish]
littlefish Ninja Registered: 12/14/02 Loc: Vienna, Austria	And while I'm at it, the best Black score from a player who lost the match was Bogoljubow's 6/13 (46.2%) against Alekhine in 1934. That one and Botvinnik-Bronstein were the only two WCh matches with more Black than White wins. Janowski had the worst scores with both Black (0.5/6=8.3%) and White (1/5=20%) in any WCh match against Lasker in 1910. The worst Black score from a match winner was Euwe's 36.7% against Alekhine in 1935; Kasparov scored 37.5% as Black against Karpov twice (in 1986 and 1990). _________________________ Ninja tournament homepage "Don't follow leaders, watch the parking meters" - Bob Dylan
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#162685 - 05/26/12 09:51 PM Re: Anand-Gelfand Game 11 [Re: littlefish]
Petrosianic Ninja Registered: 08/31/04 Loc: Doo-Wah-Diddy, Mississippi	Excellent. I wish I could pack as much information into a short post as you do. I'd once went through all the matches and determined that "Black" only won two of them, but I'd forgotten what the other one was until you just reminded me. What's the best Black score by a match winner, and the worst White score by a winner? I seem to remember studying several matches by what I thought were closely matched players, and thinking that the difference was that the loser hadn't made enough of White. Like in Petrosian-Spassky 1969 (a really good match, even though I don't like the outcome), the difference was that Petrosian only scored 50% with White, while Spassky did better. Same with Petrosian-Botvinnik 1963. Botvinnik scored exactly 50% with White, which isn't good enough. _________________________ "I brought the Atom Bomb. I think it's a good time to use it." -- Dr. Richard Gordon, King Dinosaur
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#162687 - 05/27/12 11:20 AM Re: Anand-Gelfand Game 11 [Re: Petrosianic]
littlefish Ninja Registered: 12/14/02 Loc: Vienna, Austria	If Bogoljubow had the best Black score of a losing player in 1934, I guess it follows that Alekhine had the worst White score of a winner in that match (Steinitz is second in that category scoring 55% as White against Gunsberg). Same for Lasker having the best Black (and the best White) score of all winners against Janowski 1910. Lasker was actually the only player scoring 66% or more as Black, and he did it four times (twice against Janowski, against Marshall and in the second match against Steinitz). In less one-sided matches (with the winner scoring under 60% overall) the best Black scores were Anand's 60% against Kramnik, Fischer's 59.1% against Spassky, Kasparov's 55.6% against Anand and Steinitz' 55.6% against Gunsberg. There were quite a few with the winner scoring 50% as Black, including Alekhine-Capablanca, Kasparov-Karpov 1985 and Kramnik-Topalov. _________________________ Ninja tournament homepage "Don't follow leaders, watch the parking meters" - Bob Dylan
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#162688 - 05/27/12 02:03 PM Re: Anand-Gelfand Game 11 [Re: littlefish]
littlefish Ninja Registered: 12/14/02 Loc: Vienna, Austria	Btw, I've put together some stats about WCh matches here. _________________________ Ninja tournament homepage "Don't follow leaders, watch the parking meters" - Bob Dylan
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#162700 - 05/28/12 10:00 AM Re: Anand-Gelfand Game 11 [Re: littlefish]
Petrosianic Ninja Registered: 08/31/04 Loc: Doo-Wah-Diddy, Mississippi	Originally Posted By: littlefish It does appear to be a record minimum, although just slightly below Kasparov-Anand 1995. And since they drew in 22 moves today, TwoSheds has officially broken his old record. It's interesting that, although this has been the most chessless match in history, that there were technically no "GM" draws in it. Every draw went past Move 20. It's just getting to Move 25 that was so difficult. _________________________ "I brought the Atom Bomb. I think it's a good time to use it." -- Dr. Richard Gordon, King Dinosaur
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#162820 - 05/31/12 09:19 AM Re: Anand-Gelfand Game 11 [Re: Petrosianic]
Petrosianic Ninja Registered: 08/31/04 Loc: Doo-Wah-Diddy, Mississippi	Well, one thing. It was nice of them to draw in exactly 22 moves, and bring the Moves/Game total down to an even 29.00.
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