Chess shouldn't be a professional sport. It lacks professionalism

Yeah, wishful thing Mig. Topalov has got what he wanted; a free point and a win in the mind games department. I think Kramnik will forfeit the match. Topalov is a disgrace and should be treated like a pariah from this point onwards.

“FIDE shall provide a rest room and toilette for the players during the WCC match in the playing hall and close to the stage (if possible backstage) to be equipped with a live monitor furnished with coffee and tea as well as with light refreshments.”
Obviously it means a rest room and toilette for each player. If you say it could mean common toilette, then it would also mean common rest room.

Yes, perhaps too wishful thinking I'm afraid. Since Kramnik is now also demanding all of the members of the Appeals Committee to be dismissed and replaced there really isn't any easy way out.

This is a test for FIDE as well, right? As the only "good thing" they had achieved was this unification match.

Mig, it may be wishful thinking. But I'm happy you're taking this stand. Thank you.

The fact is that Kramnik forfeited the 5th game because he didn't wish to share a toilet with Topalov. I wonder if Kramnik will be happy when history writes down this unfortunate turn of events.

Good for Kramnik. The WC should be settled on the board, not by trying to win psychological chits through creating a circus off the board.

No, the fact is that Kramnik refused to play under conditions he and his opponent didn't agree beforehand.
The match conditions were legally binding and if you just change them without really good reason, the contract is no longer legally binding to either part.

No Giannis, it's Topalov who didn't want Kramnik to use private bathroom

The contract which Hensel is claiming talks about a single toilet, not a toilet for each player. Read carefully Marc...

"Well, this isn't funny anymore." Finally, Mig woke up to the gravity of the situation. Did he think Danailov's brain games (remember the Kasparov-Ponomarov match?) had no consquences??

Why should Kramnik have to deal with this new arrangemnt hours before a game? Maybe he does need to use the washroom frequently and doesn't want to use the same washroom Topalov just took a big dump in!

None of this matters. The fact is they had a contract and FIDE BREACHED it. The players confirmed the conditions after this contract was signed. Both sides orally agreed to the conditions. You no longer need to go back to the writing.

For example lets say I sign a contract to build a house with brown bricks for you. It then appears that the brown bricks will take 3 weeks to be delivered but there are red bricks in stock. You and I both go over and see the bricks and you say to go ahead and build the house with the red bricks. We don't put this in writing nor do we change the written contract. Guess what you have no right to insist I tear down the red brick house and rebuild with brown.

The same happened here. Both teams looked at the conditions were well aware of them and agreed to them. Now mid match they want to change the agreemnt! You can't do that unless both sides agree to the change. Its really simple but FIDE just doesn't get it.

Not only that they tried to play hardball with the champion and force him to accept it or forfeit hours before a game!!! If Kramnik played would he be focused on the game or how unfair this is? This is a dirty rotten stunt!

The two combatants sharing the one toilet? Give me a break!

No matter what the outcome Kramnik stands on the side of right and is a winner in all cases. As for Topalov - even if the match was continued (and he 'won it')his name would be stained for a while - as it should. So actually today Topalov already lost....and lost a lot more than just the title...He lost the prestige he may have had before. Tough to get that back.

Anyway...
1) this match is held in Russia
2) Kramnik is russian
2) Putin did put a lot of pressure to see this match come true, and also gave all the money for the organization and the prize fund
4) Kirsan's power is totally in Putin's hands
5) Any tribunal in Russia will be in favor of Kramnik, especially in this situation
6) Kirsan is playing with fire, he may loose more than what he'd imagine with this latest "trick"...

Kramnik is right to simply refuse to stand for arbitrary changes to match conditions that he doesn't agree to.

The whole point of the contract talks before the match is to prevent this kind of bs.

Will a moral victory be enough if FIDE decides to forfeit the match to Topalov? I would like to think it would be, but with so many GM's willing to call Topa WC because he won a tournament, it seems clear that that is wishfull thinking on my part.

I predict that this is the death of match play deciding the WC. Which means, of course, that we no longer will have a WC that means anything more than the yearly tourney winner. They might as well just randomly select a top-25 rated player and declare them WC, that way they can save the expense of putting on the tournament.

I agree that Topalov is the moral loser here, even if the Appeals Committee happens to have handed him a symbolic victory.

The result of Game 5: 1.KxP 0-1 (Kramnik takes pee).

"The rest of it is aggro and distraction about favoritism".

So it doesn't matter that members of the Appeals Committee are buddy-buddy with one of the managers? That they even have shared business interests (the Radjabov-Topalov match) which may explain their strange decisions?

You got to be kidding.

There is already one moral winner of this match: Vladimir Kramnik. If Topalov accepts that point not won over the board he is the opposite of a sportsman.

This just pisses me off...no pun intended.

I remember as a kid staying up late to watch Shelby Lyman on pbs cover K v. K. It was so much fun to try and guess the moves...now everybody sits there w/ their chess engines in the bathroom and computer chips in their heads...geesh.

Here is an article I found through Google about the declining state of chess in the 90's and Mr. Lyman not being able to get anyone interested in supporting a new program (ahh the good ole days):

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CEFDE173FF932A25753C1A966958260

Am I missing something? Kramnik's beef is with the decision of the Appeals Committee, not with Topalov. How is Topalov at fault here? He raised an issue through the proper channels and the Appeals Committee agreed with him. Why would Kramnik "give" him the game and put the result of the match in question? By the way, I would find 50 trips to a private bathroom in 1 game suspicious too.

Mike,
Topalov is at fault because as the player he has final responsibility for the actions taken by his team on his behalf.

His team raised a stupid issue. Everyone knew how stupid it was. But for some unfathomable reason, the appeals committee took it seriously and changed the previously agreed to conditions of the match without Kramnik's consent -- thus voiding the contractual obligation Kramnik has to this match.

Topalov is responsible, solely, for these events.

You miss a lot, Mike. For example that third statement from Topalov's team about shaking hands etc.

David and Marc:
So the appeals committee agrees with Topalov, but you two have decided his issues are stupid, and Kramnik decides he should forfeit the next game. Makes sense?

What is sad today is how it gives victory to the many sandbagging swindlers with whom we all come into contact ... those who don't have the talent to win over the board and so need to resort to psychological measures just so long as they get the almighty point on the score sheet.

In case you haven't noticed, Mike, it is not just those two. It is just about every sane person on the planet who thinks Topalov's team and FIDE are off their rockers.

Topalov said in the press conference after game 2 that he stands losing well ...

Apparently he does not have the same class ... on and off the board

I can't believe what scumbags Topalov and his buddies in FIDE are. I really can't.

Chess engine in bathroom vs. chess chip in head.

May the best chip win.

17:45h: Kramnik appeared at the Marko's press conference and made a statement. Here are a few exerpts from it:

"Makropolous and Azmaiparashvili are very good friends of Danailov. Their actions are clearly biased in favor of Topalov. The decision to grant Danailov full access to videotapes is incorrect and outrageous. I did not sign the contract for acting in a reality show. This goes against all ethical norms and violates my privacy.

I am ready to continue the match and play the 5th game tomorrow on the conditions that were accepted prior to the start of the match. My dignity does not allow me to stand this situation. Now I am going to return to my cottage and rest."

17:50h: Savinov: "I have no idea how the situation will develop, but the atmosphere is very tense. Kirsan Ilyumzhinov is in Sochi with Russian President Vladimir Putin right now, so he can hardly intervene..."
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3375

FIDE's ability to think logically has declined to a state where tomorrow they might even ask Kramnik to share the bed with Topalov!

-Amit

Exactly what about FIDE's decision do you guys find unfair? Making the men no longer use private rest rooms is petty, but so is forfeiting a game over having to use a common one.

Give it a day before Putin and Zhukov hold Kirsan's feet over open fire.

If the match gets cancelled, it may be the best thing that happened to chance. I prefer Kramnik and FIDE have a huge conflict than to have Kramnik give his title to FIDE on a silver platter.

Kramnik has proven Classical World championship's superiority to whatever joke FIDE clowns keep calling FIDE WC(hehe) - not only has he proven it at the board, but also off the board. Now if Kramnik split with FIDE and organized a match against Anand in a year or two, that may be the best thing that can happen to chess. Clearly, FIDE is too much of a circus for Kramnik to give them the control of the World championship.

Looking on the bright side, at least it will result in some mainstream press coverage for chess. Any publicity is good publicity?

knight_tour:
Imagine you are playing at a local tournament and your opponent visits the bathroom after EVERY move, 50 times in the game. Are you not suspicious? Would you not mention it to the TD? And if the TD ruled in your favor, would you then be the villain for raising the issue?

ROFLMAO Amit!!!

Topa is behaving like Mike Tyson and may even chew Kramnik;s ear, if they hold another game

-Amit

mig i dont understand why should topalov be ashamed. sure the bulgarians maybe werent totaly fair but hey thats a part of chess too. fischer behaved much worse in his match against spasski but today everybody talks only how he outplayed him. and what about karpov-korchnoi? all kind of ridicolous protests but they never walked away from a game.

gilles,

"i dont understand why should topalov be ashamed"

lemme help you there:

He's down two -nil and starts "all kind of ridicolous protests"

Do you know what is the plague of modern sports?
MANAGERS.They are parasites who do not produce anything, are not useful at anything and they benefit (a lot) from other people's labour. One more illustration of my general remark is today's very disappointing incidence. For the whole story is an unsuccessful stratigical plot of Danailov. Frustrated that his client will lose the game and subsequently the world title he deviced this whole ridiculous conspirancy theory. Of course the whole plot is not only immoral but, additionaly, quite stupid, because it gave Kramnik the advantage. For Kramnik wins 3-1 and if he gaves up, he knows well that on people's mind, he would be the legitimate World Champion. Now he has two options: either to just give up the match (without any real consequences for him because everyone will justify him) or to negotiate hard...In any case he is up.

It is pretty shame that such a great player (Topalov) is influenced by well-dressed parasite.

"I dont understand why should Topalov be ashamed."

Well, for me the "I won't shake hands" bit takes the cake. He filed a protest, and the Appeals Committee ruled partially in his favour. At that point, you shake hands and continue playing (assuming your opponent makes an appearance at the board).

What I really can't understand is that Topalov needed to resort to such tactics. He is a slow starter and was expected to do much better in the second half. Obviously Kramnik had psyched him out and he doesn't feel like he has any chance to win by normal means. Once your opponent needs to play games off the board, you know that he doesn't think he can beat you fair and square. He has lost all respect. I admired him as a player and his remarks when Kasparov retired, but his behaviour since has been going downhill and is now Fischeresque (that is not a compliment...)

FIDE is a disgrace and I hope that Kramnik will be able to play Anand and then run a world championship cycle maybe with the support of Bessel Kok and the ACP.

Mike, it has already been proven that Kramnik visited the bathroom nowhere near 50 times. If Topalov's team wanted to complain, they should have done so privately. Going public like this is a sham and a shame.

Amit is right to compare this situation with Tyson-Hoyfield. Just as Tyson bit down to escape a beating, so Danailov and his posse are trying to finesse their way out of the match to save their client's ass. And they don't care if Kramnik takes the moral high ground, it seems to mean nothing to them. But if they fail to bring down the big man this way, look for Mehmet Ali Agca to join the Topalov team over the weekend.

Yuri
Even if we don't consider that it is unfair to unilaterally change the terms of a contract - otherwise known as breaching it - it is unfair to force Kramnik to accpet the breach hours before he plays a game! Its a distraction and when you need to concentrate so hard under such huge pressure the organizers should not be distracting players.

How abnout this? Lets start renegotiating our contract a few hours before the game starts! Lets have our little puppet Topalov smuggly hit the chess clock while you decide whether or not to accept our new terms! This is BS beyond belief!

well kasparov didnt shake hands with shirov, karpov didnt shake hands with korchnoi. fischer was behaving like a jerk with spasski.
so topalov is just doing what Fischer, Karpov, Kasparov and others have been doing before him. if anything i blame him that he's not original...

C'mon guys. Topalov is Fischer on new millennium.

They already issued 5 complaints

Sept.22 - First breach of the contract by FIDE on the request of Mr. Topalov. The agreed live monitors have been removed from rest rooms as well as the shower cabines in the bath rooms. The moves are provided on demonstration boards only.

Sept.24
Topalov's request to participate in rest room security checks, to close window, and to restrict access to rest rooms was accepted; reasonable and legitimate, IMHO.

Sept.28 - Second breach of the contract by FIDE by Topalov's request.
http://www.veselintopalov.net/article/scandal
Tapes released to Topalov, bathroom rules changed without Kramnik acceptance.

Sept.29
http://www.veselintopalov.net/article/mr-silvio-danailov-unhappy
Topalov issues a new request:
- to release tapes to journalists;
- to place watchers in rest rooms and to provide players help from an assistant arbiter during their visits to bathroom. Can't Topalov unzip himself? May be, his arms are shaking too much and he worries he can miss the opening?
Also, Topalov shows his "respect" to FIDE by agreeing to play, and obviously f%cks Kramnik up refusing to shake his hand without explanation.

Isn't this enough?

Any fans of Topalov left here?

I speak as a person who has on one occasion grabbed a TD after my opponent took his 4th bathroom break in a G/60 (short) game. The reason I did that was because I did not have confidence that the organizers established adequate safeguards against the increasingly refined "quick runs to his hotel room" or the more notorious "PDAs in a bathroom stall" techniques of this day.

But this is the fripping World Championship!!!

Assuming that you can get away with cheating at such a venue borders on delusion and Topalov's team is better accused of creating tension and upsetting Kramnik than genuine paranoia.

If we, as lowly mortals who pretend to play good chess (with varying degrees of success) can learn to tolerate that 7-year old kid who kicks you under the table and slams the pieces, I think a person of Kramnik's stature should grow a pair and not react to this cheapshot so much.

Toiletgate may be despicable, but in the end, Topalov (and his team) are taking advantage of a "weakness" they perceive in Kramnik's frame of mind ... it may not be on the board, but I think
it still counts when there's money on the table ... or am I so wrong to assume this game is not a battle of nerves?

What is this? " Kirsan Ilyumzhinov is in Sochi with Russian President Vladimir Putin right now,"

Mr. Putin is known to his radical actions. I wonder what is going to be Putin's reaction to this... he might want to be the hero saving the games.

A small paradox: mr. Putin is the best hope for chess and Garry Kasparov is the best hope for Russia.

Maybe they should replace Topalov's and Kramnik's chairs with potties.

The players won't have to leave the table and this will add a whole new dimension to the game!

This is an outrage, pure and simple. Chess World Championships have a history of bad behaviour and dirty psychological tricks, and this is certainly among the worst. It's an absolute travesty. Who the hell do these morons think they are, playing games with the kingship of chess like this? To some of us, chess is very important, and the World Championship is something we take very seriously and is very important to us.

I've always said that I admired Topalov, his play is very exciting, playing long games with few short draws is excellent for chess right now, and all that. He's brilliant. But now I hate his guts, and will forever. He needs to get rid of Danailov, and play out this match. It is clear that all of this was cooked up to try to save him from finishing out and losing the match straight up.

This just in....

When Silvio Danailov was asked is this all he got? He responded vigorously in the negative. “By observing the tapes, I have also calculated the rate of discharge of Mr. Kramnik and we (me and our parapsychologist) believe that this is in some sort of violation, we just have to figure that part out”, was quoted in the PTime.

Well, I started this match wanting Topalov to win, but now I think it would be sweet justice if Kramnik resumed play at game 6 and still won. FIDE should have more spine and tell their man to wind his neck in or forfeit the match and title.

Another serious issue. If such claims can be done in a world championship match, where there is the money and technology to protect the integrity of the game from cheating, what can be done to everyday tournaments and championships, we ,the amateur, participate?

From now on, would i be suspect everytime i go to the bathroom??

Or ,on the other hand, anyone will easily cheat by just visiting the bathroom?

It is a real nightmare and another manifestation that computers ,really, damage chess.

How would you feel if Kramnik comes back tomorrow, and Topalov sirs down at this 6th game (with score 3-2 Kramnik), plays 1. d4 and then resigns? Score now 4-2 Kramnik...

Topalov is losing the battle of public sentiment, big time. He needs to make a gesture that shows, above all, he values chess, and not a hollow championship, which is what it will be, if he wins by default.

Kramnik's manager issued this statement:

"Mr. Kramnik will not return to the chess board until the video cameras are removed from the bathrooms."

When asked whether Kramnik was being unduly stubborn, he replied:

"Sometimes, a man's gotta poo what a man's gotta poo."

Is it JUST ME or has our esteemed leader Kirsan been curiously absent from all that is taking place?

You can bet QUEENS to PAWNS that if Kramnik pulled this BS fiasco on Topalov, Kirsan would be interdicting faster than Daddy on Prom night.

Way to go, Kirsan. Another example of fine leadership at it's best.

Bessel Kok looks better every day....

Mig,

No chance this match will restart. If they attempt to remove the forfeit, Topalov will claim that it was a scheme by Kramnik to get another rest day, which he desperately needs to avoid getting worn down. No way Topalov will agree to giving back his forfeited point.

Both players should be ashamed of themselves. Chess desperately needs a great championship match and the first two games gave us hope. This is yet another black, black mark on a sport that cannot afford another one.

There is a clear solution that will solve the cheating problem, make chess more interesting to the spectator, and at the same time promote women's chess. Make everyone play naked and install videocams in all the bathroom stalls.

Niceforkinmove,

The contract, according to Kramnik's release states: “FIDE shall provide a rest room and toilette for the players during the WCC match in the playing hall and close to the stage (if possible backstage) to be equipped with a live monitor furnished with coffee and tea as well as with light refreshments.” It never specifies that the players are to have separate private bathrooms or that those are to be connected to their rest rooms. I don't know if coffee and tea have been replaced with hot cocoa (which perhaps we should consider a significant enough reason to abandon the match as well), but Mig already points out above that the new policy does not violate this.

Changing where you have to do your duty is not a significant distraction. It's a petty reason to pull out of a match.

The only change that FIDE instituted:

"To close both the toilets in the players' rest rooms and to open another toilet that will be available only to the two players."

But here's what I don't understand (directed to the Topalov-is-scum crowd). You didn't become convinced that Topalov was scum when Danailov made his complaints. People make crazy complaints in World Championship matches all the time. If the Appeals Committee had turned down the complaints completely, you wouldn't be upset at Topalov. For that matter, if Kramnik had gone along with the one-bathroom decision of the Appeals Committee, you wouldn't be so upset at Topalov. And if Kramnik had said "I will play the next two games with one bathroom under protest, but after that I will walk out unless I get my way," this would all be under negotiation still and you wouldn't be so upset at Topalov.

But what happened is that Team Kramnik raised the stakes by saying "The entire Appeals Committee must be replaced instantly, or I won't play game 5"; and then Kramnik didn't show for Game 5 and left his clock running and forfeited; and now Kramnik won't play unless the forfeited point is restored. So because of all these irreversible* actions BY KRAMNIK which clearly indicate that Team Kramnik would be happy to let the entire match stop right here unless he gets total victory on the other issues, NOW you are all convinced that Topalov is scum, a pariah, a low-life, a coward, and every other epithet. How does it work that Topalov is scum mainly because Kramnik raised the stakes and has put the whole match in jeopardy?

This is like if you call me a jerk and I say "because you called me a jerk, I will set myself on fire!", and I DO set myself on fire. This makes YOU scum because you caused me to do it! However, rest easy, even if you call me a jerk because of this post I do not promise to set myself on fire :-)

Theodulf

*There is no way that the arbiters are going to allow the forfeit to be reversed, even if Topalov were to beg them. It would completely undermine the role of the arbiter in every event in the future if a player could say "I will walk out unless you give me back a point" and get his way.

Guys,

It is amazing that supposedly smart people can keep on discussing this issue on its supposed 'substance', namely whether Kramnik is a suspect of cheating or not because of his behavior. Sometimes it may be fun to argue in favor an absurd or silly argument for the hell of it, but this is way too serious now, and the facts are unbearably ridiculous to deserve any further scrutiny.

Tens of thousands watched the first four games live, and hundreds more analysed them afterward. We all know what and how did it happen in them. And we all know that Topalov's chance to win the match now have shrunk alarmingly, and so does Danailov who is at least as smart as we are, and as unscrupulous as it can possibly for a manager to be. Danailov knows that there was no rules violation whatsoever, no serious ground to stir up suspicion ( as if Kramnik actually required 50 trips to the toilet to succesfully cheat his way against Topalov ), no suspicion of foul play whatsoever among the chess community who is watching ( a rarity I suppose these days ), but also no other option for his player to reverse the course of the match save for Kramnik losing his calm and take wild decisions, on or off the board. And this is all that is of interest to him of course, the money that are to be made for Topalov and himself as long as their pretensions to the title have not been officially dispelled.

First Danailov insinuates the cheating, then, when Kramnik is not completelly thrown overboard yet, he escalates by placing his player at the victims chair and braking off all further contact contact. It is so cheap, transparent, unethical and disastrous, that only in the world of chess could it actually occur without official condemnation and legal action taking place. This definitelly the lowest point that chess has ever reached.

right, Yuriy,

it also states nowhere that the coffee is to be hot and the tea actually the beverage rather than the loose leaves that the player then may chew at his own liking...

C'mon, get real!!

Kramnik is right to suspect that the Appeals committee is biased against him. They gave the backstage tapes to Danailov, without informing Kramnik or asking his permission. They are co-operating with the Topalov team.

This match is over. He won't continue.

That suits Danailov perfectly, because this was his intention by starting the toilet games-- sabotaging a match he couldn't win. (Shades of Fischer-Spassky. Only Spassky's personal insistence to stay and play kept the Soviet delegation from going home after Game 2, and claiming a match win.)

Makro will continue the pis*ing contest with Hensel; that's just Makro's way. Look to see all remaining games defaulted for Topo.

But in the end, this all ends up looking bad on Kirsan. And I suspect that Kirsan already knows the news. I think he might not be so happy with events. His big selling point is that "I unified chess!" And now he's got egg on his face.

If Kramnik can't handle the psychological pressure, then he just needs to forfeit the entire match.

This isn't about Topalov using the system to gain a psychological edge, it is about Kramnik having a temper-tantrum and refusing to play b/c he has to share a bathroom with somebody. (poor widdle baby.)

If Topalov had done the same thing, everybody would be accusing him of trying to duck the match because he was down 2 points.

If their contract didn't say individual toilets, then Kramnik is fighting a losing battle.

"knight_tour:
Imagine you are playing at a local tournament and your opponent visits the bathroom after EVERY move, 50 times in the game. Are you not suspicious? Would you not mention it to the TD? And if the TD ruled in your favor, would you then be the villain for raising the issue?"

50 times is documented already as 'overly exaggerated.'. I have a weak bladder myself, exasperated by nervousness at the board along with continuous dosages of water.

I pee at least 10 times during a normal 40/2 G30 time control.

Given the course of the games so far, I'd encourage Kramnik to keep cheating if I were Topalov - obviously Topalov had at least 1 winning position, and should be up 2.5 - 1.5.

Topalov fans unite! Embarrass yourself further!

It is obvious this is not about accusing Kramnik of cheating. It is the machinations of Danailov and his ability to disturb the chess cosmos.

Topalov will go down as a disgrace should this match not continue. Kramnik is doing EXACTLY the right thing.

I don't see what Topalov did wrong. Topalov didn't like something, and so he filed a complaint. The Appeals Committee ruled in his favor. This is how one is supposed to handle disagreements. One can disagree with the Appeals Committee's ruling, but if so, one should be upset at the Appeals Committee and not Topalov. On the other hand, Kramnik should have laughed the whole matter off and played. But by not showing up, it is Kramnik who is acting inappropriately, not Topalov.

"You didn't become convinced that Topalov was scum when Danailov made his complaints."

Wrong. Head back at the game 4 thread and read the reactions to Danailovs first complaint. No one took it really serious but the light it cast on Top/Danailov was pretty clear.

Nothing proofs but a lot of contradict all notion of alleged cheating in the way past four games went. My strong guess that no one would complain if score be not in favor of Topalov, one only could wish if other player will be distracted by often trips to a bathroom.

In the situation follow money as usual – FIDE simply will not cash on any potential commercial matches against their pet – Topalov. Kramnik did not promised to play off his title for money against anyone who will sponsor a player over 2700 for $1M – it seems plain and simple.

My congratulation goes to Kramnik with undisputed win at least in eyes of all chess game lovers. Apparently even 10 games match would be to long for Topalov to handle.

I could see how the situation could be resolved by very ones who created it in first place – FIDE.

kramnik vas topalov zidan vs matirazy!!!!!!!!

"But in the end, this all ends up looking bad on Kirsan. And I suspect that Kirsan already knows the news. I think he might not be so happy with events. His big selling point is that "I unified chess!" And now he's got egg on his face."

Well, seeing him kneeling in front of Topalov and his team, I don't think that's egg.

Kramnik is Inzaman ul Haq and Danilov/FIDE are Darrell Hair. (Cricket for those who don't know)

Almost identical situation.

The good news is that Inzaman was cleared of ball tampering yesterday... He was found guilty of bringing the game into disrepute, but that was the lesser charge.

Those of you who are saying that "Danailov has gotten exactly what he wanted" are perhaps neglecting the other side, which is that now Hensel apparently has everything HE could ask for, leaving aside the money (which they might be able to get some of anyway by suing or threatening to sue). The match is stopped now with a score of 3-1 in Kramnik's favor and will probably not resume. Judging from the flavor of this board and the traffic on the ICC, a majority of the chess world is willing to declare Kramnik the World Champion right now. But if he were to resume with the forfeit intact, Topalov would have seven games to make up a point, which is by no means impossible. So what motive does Team Kramnik have to resume?

Theodulf

One thing I do find strange: apparantly who is in the appeal commission was decided before the match... why does kramnik want them replaced after they ruled against him?... shouldn't he have complained before the match began?... the ruling it self we can debate but that I find strange... and also I see Theodulfs point... there is no way anybody could have guessed Kramnik would have reacted this way... the complaint is quite stupid but so is Kramniks reaction to the ruling (let's not forget he reacted to the ruling, not to Topalovs complaint)

This is rediculous! Topalov was losing this match (2 points behind, and needed to win 3 of the remaining 8 games) so he started some mindgames....
Re-di-cu-lous!

Only a neutral (non-FIDE) jury can solve this!

So far for the promised 'unification' ....
I'm ashamed to be a pro chess-player now..... -hides in the bathroom-

Theo

"By the way, I would find 50 trips to a private bathroom in 1 game suspicious too."

Mike, actually I think it is precisely the excessive frequency of him going to the bathroom that makes it even less likely that he is doing any cheating, and more ridiculous to suggest that he is.

I mean, think about it: Would a player of Kramnik's calibre need to check a computer after every move? Even if he wanted to cheat he would do so only for only a few crucial or complicated positions. He certainly wouldn't get up 50 times for that.

Mark, you made a mistake putting my name on that quote above. It was not from me. I was responding TO that quote, not making it.

Yuri
Prior to the match both teams came and *agreed* to the conditions. Thus it really doesn't matter that the original contract didn't go into more specificity. They came and saw the conditions *explicitly* agreed to them and even started playing the match with them. That is the agreement.

The fact that Kramnik doesn't want to immediately change the agreemnt so he has to literally smell Topalov's _____ everytime he wants to go off camera is not something he should be forced into right before a game. If you want changes, *any* changes, you should give each side time to consider what you are proposing.

Of course Theodulf has right.

Danailov's act was a mere stupidity. For he GAVE kramnik the advantage. Now Kramink can negotiate hard, without anything in risk. Even in the extreme case that the match be cancelled, he just reinforces his claim that he is the World Champion.

Here's the sequence of events as I see it:

1) Topalov: Kramnik cheats. I'm gonna take my ball and go home.
2) Appeals: Hmmm, you may be right, Kramnik can't use his own toilet. Are you happy Sir?
3) Topalov: No, and I won't shake Kramnik's hand either. So there.
4) Kramnik: I like to walk and there's more space in the toilet. Would you rather I paced in circles around the board?
5) Appeals: Outrageous! Lock Kramnik out of his bathroom!
6) Kramnik: If you change the match conditions I won't play.
7) World: Make the hurting stop....

We've just witnessed the first Royal Flush in the history of chess.

The problem with Topalov's behavior isn't that he simply made a request to the appeals committee. The problem is two-fold: (1) it was a stupid complaint and (2) he threatened to withdraw from the match if his stupid complaint wasn't satisfied. What a jack ass. At the same time, shame on Kramnik for letting Topalov's petty psych job get to him and walking out himself. I say a plague on both their houses.

Again we don't know much about the nature of any agreement to have this appeals commission. We don't knwo if they agreed to it. Whether there are rules that they shodul be recused if they are friends with one side. Nor do we know if they have authority to overule the terms of the agreement. Could they decide Topalov has white and Kramnik just has 30 seconds per game for the rest of the match?

We don't know much about that.

Topalov lost today. He may have gotten a point on his scoresheet by the corrupt businessmen running the show at FIDE, but today he lost his reputation. Prior to this championship match mr Topalov has enjoyed quite a high level of admiration for his exciting chess at the board. Now people are reacting in disgust over his petty attempts to turn the tables in a match where his over-the-board skills are falling short.

Topalov, you are a joke, and so is FIDE, who is letting the World Championship Match turn into a WC match!

Theodulf is right. It's in both sides' interest to end the match now. They're both playing meta-chess games with each other, and probably both think they're winning.

Sorry, knight_tour. Cut and Paste job.

Kramnik is absolutely in the right here. He is citing clearly the rules governing the match in his statements. It is NOT a reality show, as much as Putz Danailov wants it to be. Rules are made to be FOLLOWED, not BROKEN, by those who begin to lose a match and need something to grasp onto.

I hope this completely disenfranchises Professional Chess Players from FIDE and Kirsan can sit in the empty, remote 'Chess City' of Ghosts and ponder his most recent dubious sacrifice.

Dollars to Donuts Kirsan will 'fly in' and make some sort of concession to Topalov that appeases both sides and the match continues.

Otherwise, the Appeals Commitee MUST rule in Kramnik's favor, should they decide, against history, to follow the rules set forth already.

What a joke. I'm embarrassed now to tell anyone I play chess. It used to be 'I play chess!' and people looked at you with at least some slight reverence for the willingness to take on such serious game. Now it's like claiming 'I play tiddly-winks!'...

"oh, chess? What's that mean? You pee every move?"

A$$H$%L# Topalov.

FYI, I now have the panelists lined up to participate in a public session about issues raised by cheating, to take place in New York later this year. No date is scheduled yet, but I will post here when it is.

By the way -- although my personal sense of danger makes me wary of wading into the minefield that is being discussed here -- I will venture to play devil's advocate for a moment in terms of two particular points that have been raised against Topalov but that I don't find terribly convincing.

Point 1, given the fact (which I don't think anyone disputes) that engines create a POTENTIAL to cheat even at the super-GM/WC level, the "I have nothing to hide" ethic should rule every player's actions when an official accusation arises.

In the World Open (yes, a far different kind of event than the WCC match -- but still one in which some 30 or 40 GMs from around the world took part), Varshavsky avoided forfeit only by agreeing to let the TD staff inspect his person at least twice, even follow him into the bathroom and wait while he spent a long time in a stall. Meanwhile in a class section another suspect was forfeited and ejected for refusing to let the TDs inspect him further after they found a suspicious earpiece. (Note that official remarks at the time indicated the World Open staff didn't feel the earpiece by itself was enough evidence to kick him out; they acted only after he wouldn't let them check under his clothing for another piece of equipment that would have worked in conjunction with the earpiece.)

So it seems to me that players at all levels today -- up to and including WCC contenders and incumbents -- should be willing to submit to inspection any time a complaint is raised. "Go ahead, I have nothing to hide," should be the norm.

Yes, dignity is compromised. On the other hand, isn't it usually the guilty who get all huffy and say, "This is an insult! How dare you accuse me?"

I don't mean to imply that Kramnik is guilty; of course, I'm sure he is innocent. But I think many of you sound too comfortable with the PROCESS he is following here. In the long run, such a response (voicing outrage and walking away when faced with an official request to disrobe in one way or another) cannot stand, I fear.

Point 2, the appeals committee decision amounts to breaching the contract the players signed. This seems a logical fallacy. Every contest must allow a possibility of mid-course corrections if needed to preserve fairness. Otherwise there would be no point in having an appeals committee at all.

Have any of you ever held a job in business or government? Even a 500-page written contract (I don't know how many pages the contract for this match is) doesn't anticipate EVERY POSSIBLE contingency; that's why all real-world contracts are subject to procedural avenues for resolving disputes. In business, that usually means going to arbitration or a court.

From a procedural standpoint, for a WCC match, the ability to appeal to a duly constituted committee mid-match is obviously preferable to the above two alternatives. Now I'm not saying that the appeals committee for this WCC match was "duly constituted"; Kramnik may well be correct that its members are biased, should be thrown out, etc.

So I'm only knocking down on principle the argument some of you have made (that an appeal altering some condition mid-match is per se a breach of contract); I'm not rejecting the substance of Kramnik's objection to the decision or the specific body that made it.

Well, the situation is bad, but FIDE can always replace Topalov and Kramnik with Karpov and Timman!

Somebody made a comparison with Topalov and Mike Tyson and I thought it was strangely appropriate.

Both seem to be very good at their sport but not that great at things outside it... and both have one of the most despicable agents you could imagine. Sylvio Dainilov is the Bulgarian version of Don King and he has got his hooks into Topalov and won't ever let go.

Too bad for Topa... I will still enjoy his games, as long as his mental state allows him to continue playing well, which I am not 100% convinced of after this match. He is not the first to fall under the spell of a rotten apple like Dainilov, and unfortunately for him he does not have Kramnik's more well-rounded personality to allow him to see through the snake's charm.

As for Vlad, congratulations to the people's World Champion, no matter what corrupt FIDE decides. He has earned it on the board.

Jon Jacobs, have you come across any posting here that advocates relaxing the rules for inspection ?

All such questions were supposedly adressed during the many months before the contest ( that's what managers are there for too, I suppose ), with Topalov raising no objections to the setting of the resulting contracts. Then if upon arrival he had found something that did not correspond with what was agreed, he could have pursued ammendments during the acclimitazion week in Elista, before play begun, or raising some public concerns, again before play begun.

Then, if during play he had serious grounds to suspect something was wrong, he should have tried to resolve the matter in private by talking to the commitee without raising indignant hell, and without causing harmfull consequences to the image and integrity of the contest for no unsubstantiated reason. What did he chose to do instead ? Issued a press release for crying out, insinuating that his opponent is likely cheating and that the authorities are not being strict enough to bring him to order. And all that without the slightest serious ground for suspicion, either based upon evidence or the actual moves played so far, succeeding only in ridiculing both his opponent and the contest, and getting himself back into the match through the back door.

Now, what are you making out of all that ?

Jon

It is not the case that the parites didn't specically agree on the conditions of Games 1-4 they did. Here there is no unexpected "contingency" that needs to be addressed. Everyone knew *exactly* what the conditions were and agreed. Judges are not there to rewrite agreements as they would like them. They are there to enforce them. Here both teams saw the conditions weeks in advance and explicitly in public agreed to them.

"By starting the match both participants agreed all the playing conditions de facto and de jure and the conditions are therefore legally binding."

Carsten Hensel

He is absolutely correct in this. There really isn't any legitimate dispute.

Is it too much to be asked to share a bathroom with your opponent? So much that you don't show up for the game next day??

I hope Kramnik accepts in quiet protest the "result" of game 5, knowing full well he is now the moral victor of this match and sits down to play the remaining 7 games. I hope he would refuse to ever shake Topalov's hand ever again and that if they now have to share a bathroom that he makes a point on banging loudly on the door when Topalov is taking too long. He should also frequently yell out to Damilov something like "Are you sure everything is to your pet's satisfaction?"

Kramnik showed up for the game. But then this condition was put to him with his clock ticking to take it or forfeit. That is too much.

As for me I do not like to use a washroom after someone else just went. I sometimes wait. If this happened to me during a WC game while my clock was ticking after everyone agreed to having seperate restrooms, I would be put off, and my anger would distract me.

so in less than 2 weeks Kirsan and his croonies have managed to screw up both the world championship match (albeit with a bit of help from the players) and the candidate matches. Nice going FIDE!!!
I sincerely hope that all the federations that voted for Kirsan have very red ears now, because it's going to take years for chess to recover from this one, even if the match is finished.
If I owned a big business, and wanted to sponsor a sports event, would I choose the 2008 chess world championship match between X and Y.
Well, no. And I love chess.

Game 5's photos are out.

http://www.worldchess2006.com/main.asp?id=1006

Check out Topalov's huge grin on his signed scoresheet and Danielov's wide smirk.

Gawd, do these people have the slightest inkling that chess is now made all the more poorer because of what they just pulled?

*shakes head in disbelief*

Photos from "game" 5 here:

http://www.worldchess2006.com/main.asp?id=1006

Danailov seems to be really enjoying this!

Backgammon anyone?

Jan,
The issue is that Topalov can't stop. He already made demands to broke the accepted rules of play 4 times.
His first and second demand were fully agreed by Kramnik. Did he stop? No. He made the third one which was agreed partially by FIDE but not by Kramnik. Next day he louds new demands and announces he will treat Kramnik as coward. Doesn't this show he is insane?

The history books, should this match fail to reach completion, will read:

Kirsan Illyumzhinov:
FIDE President
Bribateer
"The Man who Disenfranchised Chess"

Veselin Topalov:
FIDE So-called "World Champion"
Challenger to the Real World Champion, Vlad Kramnik
"Instigator of BladderGate"
All Around Schmuck

Vlad Kramnik:
ACtual World Chess Champion by virtue of defeating Gary Kasparov in a World Title Match.
All Around Good Guy

Anyone want to play 'Go'?

Why, why, why is Topalov taking all the heat for this?! Contemplate the 'maturity' of Kramnik's response to the situation: he camps outside the toilet, pouts, forfeits the game, demands that the appeals' committee be replaced, then (apparently wearied by his exertions) retires to his cottage to rest...

It is already bizarrely unprofessional to hold the match in Kalmykia, when Kirsan is a) Kramnik's compatriot and b) notoriously corrupt. Add to this, Kramnik's relentless and unsupervised toilet breaks - stricter security is routinely applied in junior tournaments, let alone world championships!

Given all of the above, Topalov certainly has grounds for complaint. The mature approach for Kramnik would be to accept some heightened measures of security (the changes implemented by the appeals' committee were not that invasive), cash in on his 2-point lead regardless and demonstrate to the world that Topalov's claims are utterly frivolous...as it stands, going to the length of forfeiting the game merely casts unnecessary suspicion on himself.

Topalov's team may have been inadvisably aggressive about their requests, but at the end of the day Topalov was sitting at the board and Kramnik was whinging about a toilet (is it THAT big a deal to share it?!). The latter should take equal, if not more, responsibility.

Is the scoresheet Topalov holding written on toliet paper?

NikonMike

Yes indeed a picture is worth a thousand words! Topalov looks pretty happy with his first win of the match as well. Can *anyone* look at that and not think what scumbags?

"But here's what I don't understand (directed to the Topalov-is-scum crowd). You didn't become convinced that Topalov was scum when Danailov made his complaints. People make crazy complaints in World Championship matches all the time. If the Appeals Committee had turned down the complaints completely, you wouldn't be upset at Topalov. For that matter, if Kramnik had gone along with the one-bathroom decision of the Appeals Committee, you wouldn't be so upset at Topalov. And if Kramnik had said "I will play the next two games with one bathroom under protest, but after that I will walk out unless I get my way," this would all be under negotiation still and you wouldn't be so upset at Topalov"

Sorry to disappoint you. But in each one of the cases you mentioned we would know that Topalov's manager is an @$$hole and we'd be disappointed with Topalov for quietly approving his crap.

This is supposed to be a unification match, then why have separate toilets ?
If FIDE cannot even unify the toilets , how will they unify the titles ?

I still can't figure out what was really the point.

The privacy part I can understand. The contract violation, yes I understand. But cancelling a basicly won match because you don't want to use a common toilet I don't understand.

The fact still remains: Topalov was sitting in front of the chessboard. Obviously, something else was more important to Kramnik.

Perhaps it was this "not shaking hands" thing, but really, really I don't see why that matters. You are not there making friends but playing chess. The grown man should be able to handle using common toilet and not being shaken by a hand by the competitor.

I just hope they will start again tomorrow.

He was not whinging about a *toilet*.

He was whinging about:

"Makropolous and Azmaiparashvili are very good friends of Danailov. Their actions are clearly biased in favor of Topalov. The decision to grant Danailov full access to videotapes is incorrect and outrageous. I did not sign the contract for acting in a reality show. This goes against all ethical norms and violates my privacy."

asc
You missed allot of news. Kramnik was fine with all sorts of heightened security read Hensels letter. Also Topalov and Kirsan are two peas in a pod. Read Topalovs interviews supporting him and jsut generally the news for the past year.

Regardless of whether your fine with using the same bathroom right after someone else it obviously got Kramnik irritated, maybe despite his best efforts, and he had to make a quick decision whether to play a game in that irritated state or insist on his rights. For Topalov and his creep of a manager to be all smiles is revolting.

Smiling!

http://www.worldchess2006.com/img/g5-005.jpg

http://www.worldchess2006.com/img/g5-020.jpg

http://www.worldchess2006.com/img/g5-028.jpg

Unbelievable...

Agree asc.

Kramnik's case for not playing is not very impressing. Do not understand why 95% of the chess fans seems to blame Topalov, Danailov and Fide.

And on the other side of the coin, why is it such a big deal to Topalov's camp to file these complaints NOW?

I'll tell you why: Because Topalov KNOWS he cannot defeat him over the board. He is thoroughly frustrated.

It's typical fare. Topalov tried insulting him first about the disparity in ratings, that did not work. 3-1 Kramnik - outclassed my ass...He has complained, from what we learn now, on 3 other separate occasions, twice being given his complaint 'justification' and given what he asked for. At some point, Danailov and Topalov decided 'Hey, lets just get outrageous! If they call it off, we still got the Radjabov match!'.

I am entirely dissapointed in this. I haven't felt this bad since when Fischer forfeited Game 2.

Classless Bulgarian Psycho-politics, this is.

The photos from Game 5 are very revealing indeed. While Kramnik and his manager are obviously very much concerned about this disastrous situation, Topalov and Danailov are simply enjoying the mess they created. Disgusting behavior from Topalov's team.

That settles it, then. Kramnik is and remain the sole World Champion. Topalov is just a joker.

asc --
Topalov is taking the heat because Topalov is wrong.

Kramnik had his contract voided by fiat, at the request of Topalov's team.

Topalov, had he merely wanted the bathroom situation fixed to his satisfaction, could have gone to the arbiters in private, but instead he had his team issue a press release.

After the press release, Topalov could have told them that they could not change the playing stage without getting the required consent from Kramnik and thus could have asked for a delay of game 5 while the details are worked out.

There are lots of things Topalov could have done here that would have shown him to be a gentleman and a sport. He choose to do none of them.

He has shown that he is a schmuck, trying to use his influence over the FIDE committee to bully Kramnik since he can't seem to beat him over the chessboard.

On the site, there is now an open letter from Kirsan back to to Kramnik.

http://www.worldchess2006.com/main.asp?id=1008

Basically, Kirsan says he has full confidence in the Appeals Committee, and he urges Kramnik to get back to the chess board. (Not exactly shocking -- what else would he say?)

@ Myron Samsin: Kirsan's position in FIDE is higher than that of Makropolous and Azmaiparashvili. He is also Kramnik's countryman and president of the republic in which the championship is being held. Is there no bias in favor of Kramnik?

By the way, if the match resumes, Topalov now has two Whites in a row.

Ok. Few comments because the readers of this blog are extremely biased:

1. Kramnik if he wants to play with the rules initially agreed he has to accept the appeal comitee which was decided and stated in the initial terms. If he didn't ike them he should have protest before the match. (you cannot say I like the initial conditions and don't want a change exept the part that said about the appeal comitee that I just realized that they are friends of Danilov...)

2. He claims he needs space to walk. Why not ask for longer rest room, or suggest something related with this. His excuse for going 50 times in the bathroom is rediculous

3. Topalov was annoyed (correctly or not) but followed procedures (appeal) and even if he was not entirely satisfied he did come to play

4. Kramnik should have laughed at the allegations (if inocent) and play on to prove he is better

5. Is not entirely unacceptable for two players to share the same toilet. In Linares I am sure that there aren't 6 toilets, one per player, neither in Mtel or other top tournaments.

It's over guys.

Kirsan has now officially stated that he is supporting the Appeals Committee, and no way Kramnik is going to continue to play if today's forfeit is not overturned - which it will never be.

Topalov will be the new official World Champion of chess.

Topa has certainly the right to complain about Kramnik's toilette visits. I want also to mention that not Kramnik has scored two victories over Topa in this unification match but Topa pushed too hard /because he is a fighter and most people love that/ although Topa has secured draws in games one and two. So Kramnik or anyone in his crew can not claim that Topa is in a losing position in the match so far. Chess world needs an winning champion, not a defender who can hardly find an winning idea!

Kramnik knows that without his toilet (and what is hidden there) he will lose the match. So, he wants to break the match.
Sour loser.

niceforkinmove,

Again, the conditions that are breach of contract are only those set out by the contract itself. If the contract stipulates that the venue be indoors then moving it outside is a breach of contract by organizers. Moving it to a different hall is not. The approach of "any alterations to conditions even not set out by the contract is a breach of contract" means that raising the temperature in the hall by .5 degrees is a good enough excuse for Topalov or Kramnik to bail.

Certainly, there may be situations not expressly set out by the contract that are so severe they need resolution/new rules/rule changes. In such a case the matter in dispute comes before an arbitration committee which resolves it.

You point out that nobody wants to smell somebody's crap during the game. That's a good issue to bring up. Perhaps in time it could be resolved. But I doubt that anybody here would bail on a chance to be a world champion because of the risk of a smelly bathroom.

We all wish the parties had more time to sort this out. But the match is on a schedule and we have to live in the real world. The daily game schedule and the arbitration system are definitely part of the contract. And I bet were actually agreed on EXPLICITLY by both participants.

Since chess seems to be a lost cause I am starting FIDM (Fédération Internationale des Monopoly). I promise it will be a fair and democratic organization, though of course I will be making all the important decisions. I will also personally put up the $10 prize fund for the world championship match which will be played in my backyard. Date will be decided later.

asc: Makro acts as functioning manager of FIDE. It is always his picture and his name, whenever there is serious negotiating going on. Kirsan just kind of sits in his ivory tower and showers money on his plaything. Yes, Kirsan has a higher position, but Makro is the de facto boss. Did you see him pointing fingers and talking loudly in the pictures from the press conference today?

The grin on Topalov's face made me sick. What a disgrace. Utter c***.

Everything has been said really. Topalov's team getting the tapes proves how corrupt FIDE are in all this. In all probability Danailov was informed by someone inside FIDE about the content of these tapes. It stinks to the high heaven.

Kramnik did the right thing. He is the one with his honour intact. On ICC the public opinion seemed approx. to be 4 to 1 (or so - with many blaming both parties to a varying degree) in favour of Kramnik and those 20% for Topalov had to be either mad, trolls or bulgarians with their inane comments.

How can anyone justify what they just did to chess, for their own personal financial gain. No class, zero dignity.

From Susan Polgar's Fantastic Blog:

Open Letter of FIDE President Kirsan Ilyumzhinov to Vladimir Kramnik

Sochi, 29 September 2006

GM V. Kramnik

Dear Vladimir,

I am currently in Sochi, at meeting of meeting of the Heads of the Regions of the South Russian Region of the Russian Federation led by the President of Russia V. Putin.

I have carefully read your open letter of today addressed to me, and I hereby inform you of my full trust in the members of the Match Appeals Committee and their latest decision taken in respect of the appeal of Topalov’s team dated 28 September 2006.

I am also asking you in good faith to continue your participation in this match for the sake of the principles of our sport and prevention of the destruction of our long-sought efforts to organize this World Championship match, which is of utter importance for the whole world.

Millions of chess fans in the whole world are following this match with great interest and are looking forward for the just outcome produced over the chessboard and not from exchanging open letters which we are receiving from both teams. The Republic of Kalmykia and me personally as well as the Russian Chess Federation with its President, Mr. A. Zhukov have done our best in order to secure excellent conditions for the both participants. Therefore, I am kindly asking you to respect all these steps taken towards the smooth organization of the event.

Yours sincerely,
Kirsan Ilyumzhinov
President

posted by SusanPolgar at 9/29/2006 12:41:00 PM | 3 comments links to this post

My summary on the bathroom scandal

A few days ago, Silvio Danailov made an official protest against Kramnik. The official protest stated that Mr. Kramnik used the toilet about 50 times in each game.

This is the official rule from FIDE which both players agreed to prior to the match:

3. 17 Appeals Committee.

3. 17. 1 The President or his Deputy shall be Chairman of the Appeals Committee. There shall be two (2) other members all from different Federations. No member of the Appeals Committee can be from the federation of either player.

All protests must be submitted in writing to the Appeals Committee not more than two (2) hours after the relevant playing session, or the particular infringement complained against.

The Committee may decide on the following matters:

a) an appeal against a decision by an arbiter,
b) a protest against a player's behaviour,
c) a complaint alleging false interpretation of the regulations,
d) a request for the interpretation of specific regulations,
e) a protest or complaint against any participant, or
f) all other matters which the Committee considers important.

If possible, the Committee shall reach a decision not more than two (2) hours after the submission of a protest. The appeals process shall include written representations and a written decision.

The Committee shall endeavour to find binding solutions that are within the true spirit of the FIDE motto, Gens Una Sumus. Each protest must be accompanied by a deposit fee of USD 5,000 (five thousand US Dollars) or the equivalent in local currency.

If the protest is accepted as logical and reasonable, the fee shall be returned even if the protest will be rejected. The fees not to be returned due to unreasonable protests shall be forfeited to FIDE.

The written decision of the Appeals Committee arising from any dispute in respect of these regulations shall be final.

The Appeals Committee made the following final decision:

In order that the World Championship can continue running smoothly, the Appeals Committee has decided:

(a) To close both the toilets in the players' rest rooms and to open another toilet that will be available only to the two players.
(b) Not to accept the request of Mr. Danailov, to stop the use of the rest rooms by the players.
(c) The Appeals Committee believes that the publication of the videotapes to the mass media is not within our authority and we consider such action to be against the privacy of the players.
(d) The Appeals Committee will return the fee of USD 5,000 for the appeal to Mr. Danailov.

Mr. Kramnik did not agree with the decision. He refused to play game 5 unless his conditions are met. The arbiter started his clock 22 minutes late and he failed to show up within the time stated in the rule and was forfeited.

At the press conference, Mr. Kramnik stated that he is willing to play game 5 tomorrow (which means that he does not recognize his forfeit loss today) if the match proceeds as planned and there would be no change whatsoever in any condition.

In addition, he demanded that the Appeals Committee be replaced because he feels that they are more favorable toward Mr. Topalov.

Unless something can be agreed by all parties, the match will not go on. This is another sad episode for chess. I feel that all sides have valid points but I also believe that all parties made mistakes in handling this matter (perhaps some more than others).

I strongly believe that if chess has a serious and professional Chess Commissioner such as other major sports, this would not have happened. The players and organizers cannot be both judge and jury at the same time on matters like this.

These players are the best in what they do. We are witnessing the best attacker against the best defender and it can bring back true credibility to the World Championship title. The chess fans have been waiting 13 long years for the title to be reunited.

I urge all sides to think about the consequences and what they are doing to chess. Please put the best interest of chess and the chess fans first and put aside personal ego or destructive psychological mind games. May the best player win on the chess board!

I have no stake in this World Championship Match. I am not rooting for or against either player. I do not think either player cheats. I just think they went to far with the psychological mind games. This opinion is mine only and I state things as I see them from the perspective of a chess fan, chess professional, chess ambassador and as someone who competed and won the World Championship in the past.

posted by SusanPolgar at 9/29/2006 10:47:00 AM

yeah did his toalit pc adviced him b*f8 topalv and his fans are the soure losers

At least Danilov have succeded in what Greg Koster et al have not, I am truly convinced that Kramnik is the true world champion. On the other hand Kramnik was en route to convincing me himself...

Q

Susan,

I just at this point do not see how chess can save a meaningfull world championship.

Do you?

2Mimo: Obviously, the sore loser forget to go to toilet before this move. In the subsequent games he did not make such mistake and was more frequently visiting toilet :).

the contract specifies the power and make up of an appeals committee to handle disputes. topalov used the official channel outlined in the contract to bring his dispute. his dispute was only partially satisfied and due to that he decided to protest by not shaking hands, but agreed to continue play.

it is kramnik that is in breach. he chooses not to abide by the decision of the appeals committee; who is given power over disputes in the rules and regulations. and he questions the make up of the committee and refuses to acknowledge it's power after agreeing to these provision:

"The President or his Deputy shall be Chairman of the Appeals Committee. There shall be two (2) other members all from different Federations. No member of the Appeals Committee can be from the federation of either player."

"The written decision of the Appeals Committee arising from any dispute in respect of these regulations shall be final."

Topalov is taking the heat because he's the one in breach of contract. Simple as that.

As Danailov says, and you can look it up on Chessbase: "Agreement exists only when there are signed papers; everything else is just words."

The signed papers are all that matters here. They seem to put Topalov squarely in the wrong. If Kirsan doesn't think so, the Committee of Arbitration for Sport surely will.

After that ridiculous, condescending and one-sided piece from Ilyumzhinov what is there left to say.

yeah and the reson that topalov is losing this game is becouse he forget his chair in san lauis

"Classless Bulgarian Psycho-politics, this is." - Mark

"...those 20% for Topalov had to be either mad, trolls or bulgarians with their inane comments." - AZ79

Nice vein of xenophobia running through this thread...

But of course everything Bobby Fischer ever did was sacrosanct...

Interesting. The Russian Chess Federation is taking the side of Krammer.

http://www.64.ru/?/ru/articles/item=1210

Quote of the day:

"15:45h: Kramnik is in his rest room, and is waiting for his toilet to open. The press conference of Makropoulos is about to start. So far it seems the game is not going to start unless the toilet is opened..."

At least now we have Classical Toilete Champion. He fully deserved this title. Has anyone in chess history succeed being 50 times in a toilet during a game from a World Championship match.

The 'Danailov' Demands:

1)To stop the use of the rest rooms and the adjacent bathrooms for both players.
2)If a player needs to go to the bathroom, he can use the public bathroom, but only with permission from the Arbiter and accompanied by an assistant arbiter.
3)The Organizing Committee should present the video tapes from the rest rooms to all journalists accredited in the press-center so that they can verify for themselves the facts described by us.

The Decision:
(a) To close both the toilets in the players’ rest rooms and to open another toilet that will be available only to the two players. [WHY?]
(b) Not to accept the request of Mr. Danailov, to stop the use of the rest rooms by the players. - APPEAL DENIED
(c) The Appeals Committee believes that the publication of the videotapes to the mass media is not within our authority and we consider such action to be against the privacy of the players. - APPEAL DENIED
(d) The Appeals Committee will return the fee of USD 5,000 for the appeal to Mr. Danailov. - AS INDICATED IN THE AGREEMENT

So, essentially, the Topalov Teams's complaining about a man's frequency to use the toilet got the Appeals Committee to remove private toilets from both players rest areas.

Ludicrous. Petty. The act of a desperate team.

Topalov will forever be associated with 'ToiletGate' regardless of his chess acumen.

Even Fischer would not stoop to such depths.

Topalov has and forever thought himself worthy of a 'better' opponent than Kramnik, yet somehow, his fanbase cannot reconcile how he can be down 3-1 at this juncture, having passed up a sure draw, and missed a sure win. Kramnik, on the other hand, took advantage of his opponents mistakes and secured BOTH points, something Topalov and his fans cannot seem to come to terms with.

All that is left is mindless nitpicking and Appeals submission from here on out.

I'd be truly amazed if another game is played in this match.

Topalov gets the FIDE 'Unified Flush Championship' Title and looks forward to his so-called WCC match against $$Radjabov$$.

Elsewhere, the entire chess publica will recognize Kramnik as the true world champion.

A pyrrhic victory.

"Topalov will be the new official World Champion of chess."

In FIDE's view, he already was. But no one will accept a "championship" that's won this way.

Disgraceful day for chess again. Topalov is such a low life. To resort to these shameful tactics when he is behind is bad enough but to use the corrupt pals on the appeals committee to give it credence..... Terrible

Topalov trule deserves the title "The WC Chamion" ;-)
And Danailov can TISSUE new demands from now on to everybody who wants to use the WC they own!

I wonder if there's any chance that the organizers of Wijk aan Zee, say, come forward and anounce that they won't invite Topalov again.

But this is probably too much to dream of...

At least this situation will be a heaven for puns and clever headlines. I am thinking in a few:

Kramnik is pissed up
World championship going down the drain.
Chess politics stinks
Kramnik was full of crap.
Topalov title is worth a sh*t

and many more eschatological references. I am awaiting the Kingpin magazine take on this issue :)

Topalov is taking the heat because he raises an issue that is 1% substantiated by evidence and logic, at a time when he appears 90% down and out from a contest in which 100% of the people watching had not noted anything irregular untill yesterday, save for a missed simple mate.

Shame on him, for ridiculing and jeopardizing what all the chess fans in the world were so eagerly expecting, for ridiculing chess as a sport to the mainstream media, for insinuating that his opponent is a toilet cheater without any serious evidence whatsoever and for employing cheap tricks to get back into the match. Cheapalov is indeed a fair name for him to carry.

Topalov should immediately withdraw from the match and demand that it will be continued with result 3-1, but only if the remaining games are played in Bulgaria. Otferwise, the Russians (I suspect even Putin will be involved soon) will make all sorts of machinations to help their sour loser to win the match. Enough is enough.

In summary, Topa tried to create a situation and Appeals team allowed him to do that. As a result of which the playing conditions before game 5 were different from that existed before Game 1.

Did Kramnik break any law or regulations of the match during Games 1-4 ? If nobody has a proof then it is unjust to make changes in the match conditions. Those raising points that Kramnik should have raised protest reagrding Makro and Azmai in Appeals Committee than in the same vein one can say that Topa's team had also evaluated the match conditions and should have asked for a controller accompanying the players during the bathroom visit. Topa's Team had also agreed to the playing environment (with 2 toilets etc).

We are all aware that for last one decade or more FIDE had become used to arrange 4/6 game WC matches. So Let's assume that Kramnik won the 4-game match by 3-1 margin. I don't have any hopes of resumption of this match.

-Amit

And here we were worried about whether blitz, rapid or additional classical would be adequate tiebreak.

As much as I agree with Kramnik's stand in principle, we live in a real world in which such a change is no reason to bail on the game and match.

Kramnik wanted to be able to pace and think by himself, unsupervised. He approved the arbitration committee. Most significantly, he agreed to play by Kirsan's rules and turn over the title to him.

Some kind of organizer boycott of Topalov sounds appealing. But I doubt it will be considered by anyone with any power ($). Just as with scandals outside the chess world, my hunch is that people involved in the business of organizing top-level tournaments will just shake their heads for a week or so and then get on with life.

Unfortuantely, the only people who sound willing to give up something of their own to express their outrage, are those who comment on the Internet. The irony is that if even one of them had any money to put into chess, then a sizable fraction of all chess-blog discussions (about how chess pros can't make a living, FIDE is awful and only gets its way because of Kirsan's purse strings, etc.), wouldn't even be taking place. Money, hell; most of them don't even have names.

The Russian Chess Federation made a statement.
http://www.64.ru/?/ru/articles/item=1210
In short:
Topalov uses incorrect methods which shows his weakness;
The Federation demands:
- cancel the Appeals Committee decision on video tapes release as unethical;
- cancel the decision to close bathrooms;
- replace members of the Committee;
- resume the play from 3-1 with full accordance to the previously accepted regulations.

The federation believes that the FIDE President and organizers wo0uldb't let Topalov to break the match down.

It becomes really tricky now.
They play in Russia, The head of Russian Federation is Vice-Prime-Minister of Russia, and he can put a serious pressure on Kirsan. It looks like the official matter can be resolved only by Putin. Will he show his support for Kramnik and Zukov, or to Kirsan's original position (which can easily change, of course).
It is obvious that either Kramnik or Topalov will not continue playing under such sircumstances. So the match is over. Should we really care now what the final decision will be?
For me it is obvious:
- Kramnik is truly respectable person and the realo Champion;
- Topalov is cheapo;
- FIDE and Kirsan succeeded as usual;
- the chess publicity is now even worst than year ago.

What a joke, why these guys (Kramnik and Topalov) are not honest?

If they were so tired that wanted an extra rest day, it would be much easier if they just say: "We agree to play game five on Saturday".
Instead, we have all these freak show ... for what? For playing game five on Saturday.

This not only damages the image of chess, but it makes among the public to root for either Topalov or Kramnik not because of their chess, but because of their positions: Topalov, Mr Danailov's puppet (it was not enough for him to damage Ponomariov, he wants everything for seeing his dreams fulfulled with either player), or Kramnik, who does not want to show what he does in the bathroom, when people know what usually a secretive person does in a bathroom ... (reading magazines?)

All this happens when: (a) None of the players have a girlfriend/wife. (b) None of the players have any other serious profession, anything to do besides chess, so chess is life for them.
(c) Both players want to give credibility to a title that none of them won in a unanimously recognized way.

Definitely, chess is becoming only interesting if you are a bad player (so you are still amazed for the beauty and does not understand high level chess)... For high level chess, this is the future: Every game will consist of at most three hours and none of the players is allowed to go to the bathroom (like a examination).

Sad days for professional chess.

OK. Kramnik clocks 50 unsupervised toilet breaks/game. This is not seen as remotely questionable. And because Topalov protested, he should be boycotted by organizers.

Yeah, I'm really following the logic here...

Good Stuff:

Accusations of cheating in chess matches are not unprecedented, and sometimes they are a little outlandish.

In 1978, during the world title match between Anatoly Karpov and Viktor Korchnoi, Karpov had yogurt delivered to him about three hours into Game 2. Korchnoi's camp protested, saying that the flavor, blueberry, was a code to suggest a move or strategy to Karpov.

Korchnoi's team later said the protest was meant to be funny, to show how ridiculous some of the protests during the match had been, but the appeals committee took it seriously. It ruled that yogurt could be delivered to Karpov at a fixed time during each game, and that the referee would have to be notified before the game if it would not be blueberry.

And Sergei Dolmatov, a grandmaster and a trainer for the Russian national team, accused Topalov of cheating last year at the world championship tournament that he won in San Luis, Argentina. Danailov strenuously denied the charge.

Yasser Seirawan, an American grandmaster who has been providing commentary on the match at playchess.com, said the charges by Topalov's camp were probably a reflection of nervousness, and that Kramnik probably was not cheating.

The real problem, Seirawan said, is Topalov's standing in the match.

"I'm sure that he is saying to himself: `This can't be happening to me. It can't be that he is a better player."'

You know, if chess wants to be seen as a professional sport, the governing bodies should threaten each player with, say, a $1.5 million dollar fine if they walk out on this match.

Agree with Vlad as to the "obvious" points.

I'm curious how much Putin *cares*, really. If a lot, then he can put the heavy on Kirsan. But Putin has a lot more important things on his mind, like Gazprom and Rosneft and so forth.

Topalov's claim may appear ridiculous, however, he has acted entirely withing the rules of the agreement. There is no 'breach of contract'. The Jury mechanism is established as the method of dispute resolution in the contract.

Topalov submitted a protest to the Jury, which made a ruling. Kramnik did not like the ruling, and did not show up. 1 point to Topalov.

All that being said - the whole affair is tawdry in the extreme. Oh well, at least we can have a new entry in the dictionary definition for 'bathos'.

asc:

You keep quoting '50 toilet breaks per game' like it's fact, when the Appeals committee already stated it was exaggerated.

Given that, what does the Topalov Appeal stand on?

The Demands:

1)To stop the use of the rest rooms and the adjacent bathrooms for both players.
2)If a player needs to go to the bathroom, he can use the public bathroom, but only with permission from the Arbiter and accompanied by an assistant arbiter.
3)The Organizing Committee should present the video tapes from the rest rooms to all journalists accredited in the press-center so that they can verify for themselves the facts described by us.

The Decision:
(a) To close both the toilets in the players’ rest rooms and to open another toilet that will be available only to the two players. [WHY?]
(b) Not to accept the request of Mr. Danailov, to stop the use of the rest rooms by the players. - APPEAL DENIED
(c) The Appeals Committee believes that the publication of the videotapes to the mass media is not within our authority and we consider such action to be against the privacy of the players. - APPEAL DENIED
(d) The Appeals Committee will return the fee of USD 5,000 for the appeal to Mr. Danailov. - AS INDICATED IN THE AGREEMENT

So, essentially, the Topalov Teams' complaining about a man's frequency to use the toilet got the Appeals Committee to remove private toilets from both players rest areas; a frequency of 50 the Appeals Committe further stated EXPLICITLY was EXAGGERATED.

I don't get it.

Oh please this is bad enough without having to read Susan Polgar claim she is not in favor of either player. I have to go out of town so I can't pull all the times she publicly said Kramiks title expired and Topalov is the real champ.

How does she suggest they procede? Should Topalov agree to negate his "win"? Should Kramnik just suffer the "loss" and play on?

isnot the head of tha appeals committie the same guy that mad the fight with the spanish police 2year ago????

the agreements also state that each claim is to be submitted to the Jury no later than two hours after a game and to be resolved within another two hours _if possible_.

The fact, that there was a rest day in between and Kramnik was informed about the Jury's decision two hours _before_ start of the new round with various other protests of Topalov's already in the air, is dubious to the extreme.

His claim of a biased jury is a lot more substantiated on those facts alone than the whole story Topalov dreamed up.

http://www.ajedreznd.com/2004/serie.htm

the head of the appeals committie :)

All these personal, 5th grade level, attacks against Topalov are way overboard.

Mig, maybe there should be a 'I am 12 years or older and if I cannot express my point of view without calling chess players names I would use my mouth to shut up' screen, before people can post comments.

You know, if chess wants to be seen as a professional sport, the governing bodies should obey the law and follow agreements they sign.

Mark,

I don't "keep quoting". I quoted once.

The appeals' committee did not state the extent of the exaggeration. It conceded "an unusual number of visits".

Topalov exercised his right to protest, the appeals' committee took it seriously, and suddenly he should be boycotted...?

Still don't get it.

There is no way that Kramnik will continue the match unless the forfeit is removed. My guess is that he will leave Elista tomorrow, and the match will be over.

Nick,
Everybody gets what they deserve. Topalov is no exception.

Jean-Michel,

I agree that Silvio Dainilov is similar to Don King in terms of sleaziness. But that's pretty much where it ends. Unlike Don King, Mr Dainalov has absolutely zero charisma. The only feeling that he tends to provoke is disgust.

Everyone's getting a bit overexcited aren't they? I really can't see why Topalov's getting all the abuse. There have been silly protests in most of the World Chmapionships held in the past. Topalov's only following the tradition. Kramnik's the one who taken it to extremes by refusing to play. He should have just laughed it off and got on with it, and maybe launch a few protests of his own.

My prediction: Kirsan comes back and orders Danilov to find some sort of comprimise with the Kramnik camp. The forfeit will get annulled, and Kramnik will get his toilet back. The match will continue, and Kirsan gets himself some nice publicity as the man who saved the match.

Yuri

Let me use your example of temperature. Lets say the players both agree the temperature shall be between 70 and 85 degrees. Then Topalov starts losing 2 games and complains that it should be 100 degrees. It is not ok that the commission decide that the temperature should now be 95 degrees. They should not be able to change what the players agreed to. Here they explicitly looked at the playign hall and agreed to the conditions.

If they originally said it would be indoors and then later agreed that it woudl be in this building then it had to be in that building.

please note this regulation that Susan Polgar must have missed it:

Official Match Regulations, Section 3.18.3: "After the World Chess Championship Committee agrees with the Organisers on the arrangements in respect of the tournament hall, facilities, accommodation and meals, transportation, telecommunication, ceremonies, etc., no objections from the participants shall be acceptable as long as the conditions are in accordance with the rights of the players granted in their agreements."

Note it says "agreements" PLURAL so it is not just talking about one written agreemnt. Nor does it in any way exclude thier agreement that they would play with this layout. After the comittee and the organizers agreed Topalov had no
*standing* to even bring this complaint. So the comission violated the rules in even hearing the complaint. They then violated this provision again by changing Kramniks right under his agreements.

This was piling one violation on top of another.

"Topalov: One has to win games in order to win matches."

Topalov just proved himself wrong!

Kirsan has officially replied that he does not intend to change anything, so in reality this match is over. Kramnik will rightly refuse to play if conditions are not restored, and he will also not accept game 5 as forfeited.

If the appeals committee dont come to their senses by tomorrow I for one fully endorse him to leave the championship match. Topalov can remain in Elista with his reputation rotting away, preciously holding on to his FIDE paper title.

Spud,

so because someone spits on my shoes, I should just acknowledge that there are many people who spit on others shoes, I should have shrugged it off, and maybe spit on some others shoes myself.

Is that about what you're proposing??

Topalov's team may have been inadvisably aggressive about their requests, but at the end of the day Topalov was sitting at the board and Kramnik was whinging about a toilet (is it THAT big a deal to share it?!). The latter should take equal, if not more, responsibility.

Posted by: asc at September 29, 2006 12:32

My thoughts exactly. Kramnik, leading the match 2-0, defaults a whole point to Topalov because he has to share a bathroom with him?

WTF?

abc,
Topalov' manager lied to public abvout very sensitive matters. Even the friendly Appeals Committee had to make a public note on this.
I would assume that Topalov did not know about the lie until he said he wouldn't shake Kramnik's hand.
Why? Because Appeals Committee did not accept their demands as baseless? Or because Kramnik does not agree to the Appeal Committee decision? Did Kramnik ever said a single bad word about Topalov? Did he ever show his disrespect to Topalov?
The only Topalov's goal was to stop the match. And he succeeded. But now everybody can see his true face with WC stuff all over.

maybe all this scandal was prearrenged by Topalov, Kramnik and FIDE to get more publicity for chess.

Albrecht's post evokes the typical schoolteacher putdown, "Well, if all your friends jumped off a cliff, would you do it too?"

Because, yeah, it's really equivalent to what Spud's proposing...

I personally do not understand all the Topalov bashing, myself.

If I had been Kramnik, I would have said "Fine, I will share a bathroom with you and beat you anyway to prove that my trips to the bathroom had absolutely nothing to do with my 2-0 lead".

But to give up a whole point because of a TOILET???? Makes no sense to me.

I have found most of the pro-Kramnik posting simply unconscionable, especially the blatant false accusations against Topalov which claims that he has broken his contract, when it is obvious that it is the other way around. Kramnik forfeited the match, not Topalov. Personally, I don't like the ruling of the Appeals Committee, it seems to me that there should have been some other way to resolve the issue. Nonetheless, Kramnik should have played on under protest. If the match does not continue, everyone will look bad. Kramnik will look bad for walking out and forfeiting the match, does that mean he was cheating? Topalov will look bad for derailing the match while he was two points down -- he could win the crown on a technicality only to lose public respect. FIDE will look bad because there will be no unification. And chess will look bad -- can't even run a simple thing like a World Championship match without having one of the contestants walk out.

Well summed up from the rules, niceforkinmove. FIDE won't have a leg to stand on (hopefully).

As I believe someone else proposed (this blog has gotten pretty huge, so it would take some time to find it), the best thing that could happen would be for Topalov to request that he's not going to accept a forfeited game, take back a couple (maybe the last 2 or so) of his manager's demands, and then the ball's in Kramnik's court to allow the match to continue. But I don't think it will happen. I think we're now doomed to have 2 champions again, prob. for quite some time...

I don't give a damn what is right or wrong. Kramnik was at the hall and should have done what professionals in sports do, and that is play. Results in sports are final when the game is over. Accept the fact you were damn stupid, play with the forfeit loss and defend your damn championship. Frankly, why Kramnik would agree to a unification match that was being ran by the otherside rather than a neutral party is strange in itself, but he did agree to it, and should play.

The appeal jury's decision to change the playing arrangements are not only in contradiction to common sense, they are even in clear violation of the match contract:

Official Match Regulations, Section 3.18.3: "After the World Chess Championship Committee agrees with the Organisers on the arrangements in respect of the tournament hall, facilities, accommodation and meals, transportation, telecommunication, ceremonies, etc., no objections from the participants shall be acceptable as long as the conditions are in accordance with the rights of the players granted in their agreements."

3. 17. 1 "The President or his Deputy shall be Chairman of the Appeals Committee. There shall be two (2) other members all from different Federations. No member of the Appeal