I rather forgot this was starting so soon, my bad. Six rounds of double round-robin rapid in Moscow to commemorate the 100th anniversary of Mikhail Botvinnik. Anand, Carlsen, Kramnik, Aronian! The first day hardly lived up to the quality of that list of names, it must be said. Blunders abounded, with Carlsen missing wins against Anand (probably) and Aronian (surely). Nice to see Kramnik continuing his new habit of sacrificing pieces, this time against Carlsen, though it ended in draw. I thought Kramnik was headed for a typically Kramnikian win over Aronian with a tempoing bishop in the endgame, but it ended in a draw quickly. Isn't 47.Bf1 headed for zugzwang rather quickly? 47.Kd7 48.Bh3+ Ke7 e4 and the knight has to move and the b-pawn looks tough to stop. (Damn computer isn't as impressed, however, so maybe we'll have to trust this Kramnik guy.) The world champion was the only one to score a victory, a nice piece of work against Aronian. The second half of the event is Saturday. It's a weird event in that the games are paused so the players can give commentary to the crowd. I'm pretty sure Botvinnik wouldn't have approved! But what the hey, he didn't much approve of the dissolution of the USSR either, so he wasn't exactly infallible.
Fun to have the four top-rated players on the new FIDE list facing off. A pity it isn't at least four rounds. All the players except Kramnik will join Ivanchuk, Nakamura, and Vallejo in the Grand Slam Masters Final starting on the 26th.
It was fun to see Kramnik destroy Carlsen's experiment.
Nice to see the patzer take a pasting :)
3000 rating performance by the world champion! This type of real performance - in a closed circuit event in this case, against closest rivals - is what I think makes Anand the greatest player ever! This is truly a dominating performance.
Congrats Anand for this very impressive show!
The greatest player ever? It was after all his first tournament win in 3.5 years, and rapid. In their previous rapid event a few months ago Carlsen scored +8 and Anand +1, so I think ranking the latter ahead of Kasparov is going a bit too far.
All fans - you as a Carlsen fan, Pirc Alert as an Anand fan - tend to emphasize the highlights of their heroes. "Greatest ever player" debates are futile anyway IMO, and when it comes to rapid events one cannot really make comparisons with Kasparov because he hardly played such events.
Who dominated the classical event with (almost) the same players, about a year ago in Bilbao? ,:)
Nicework against Aronian but making Anand the greatest player ever , Iam sure we are carrying a bit too too far!
Anand is a great player and doesn't require the services of his flunkey, Pirc Alert, who overblows even his fine achievements. Poor Vishy can't even with the chess oscar. He is a good world champion, but he has never been able to convincingly outdistance himself from his nearest competitors as Fischer, Karpov, and Kasparov were able to do. Maybe it isn't Vishy's fault, but it's a function of today's computer age, where other players are able to catch up. Perhaps the years of the dominant champion are over forever. Interesting to see...
"3000 rating performance" ... "real performance" ... "dominating performance" ...? Sure, Anand deserves praise for clobbering the rest of the top 4, but it was a six-round rapid event, for God's sake! A prestigeous one, absolutely, but I don't think any of the contestants will be losing too much sleep over this.
gg and others,
I would put Kasparov in the top 10 list of all time greats. But in the top and above Anand? No!
During his initial days Kasparov's competition was weak, as can be seen from a 63 old Smyslov playing in the Candidates final and also from that he had to repeatedly play Karpov. Yet he barely won against Karpov. Kasparov Anand was a private match affair that cannot be taken into account when there was no official neutral supervision. We all know Kasparov ducked Anand afterwards. Kasparov was thoroughly dominated by Kramnik in their match. The one you can tell where Kasparov dominated was the match against Short. Will that be sufficient to qualify him for the top of the list? You all will agree tournament results cannot be given much weightage and therefore the ratings obtained from that. Because they don't happen in a control environment and buy/sell or game fixing possibilities are there with help of organizers or with brand name promoters. Quick games are an indication of one's OTB skills and speed of calculation but compared to Anand, Kasparov wasn't that great and he avoided it mostly. His Simul floor was much less than Anand. One thing is clear when you see all these things. Kasparov was never prepared to take up a real challenge but all he (or his fans mainly) wanted was to just create a perception that he was the greatest. So is there much substance when you say Kasparov is the greatest of all time? Can you please show how?
Thank you.
Re: Anand not winning tournament
Why would that be an issue when Anand is winning all important matches? Like I said tournament has many flaws. The recent hilarious thing with the tournamnet is the football scoring system. These are done against Anand. You fix bottom two boards for your favorite and Anand lost it even before the tournament is started, even if his performance is greater than the tournament winner. Others would now say the tournament winner played like that only because of the format! ;) So it is not correct to attribute to Anand anything that is not in his control, like not winning a tournament in this case!
That's the worst post I've read in years. The funny thing is, you sound like you actually believe what you write!
Professor, you divert topic, instead of producing supporting arguments for Kasparov, but still is it funny??
Look what Kramnik has to say in just a few days back that I just ran into thanks to a poster Kumar in chessvibes. Haven't read it fully but a must read interview!
http://whychess.org/node/1605
"I lost to Anand, but I could also have lost to him in my very best form."
"At the given moment I don’t see who can compete with him when he’s on form. Perhaps only Carlsen in his very best condition, though probably not. I think he’ll only leave the stage when he weakens himself and ceases to maintain that extremely high level."
These are all spontaneous reactions coming out of conviction! Very serious endorsement for Anand!!
Some more about Anand from Kramnik interview..
"V.K.: I always considered him to be a colossal talent, one of the greatest in the whole history of chess. Each champion has had some sort of speciality, and his is creating counterplay in any position out of absolutely nowhere. He’s got an amazing ability to constantly stretch himself so that even in some kind of Exchange Slav he nevertheless manages to attack something and create something. He also plays absolutely brilliantly with knights, even better than Morozevich – if his knights start to jump around, particularly towards the king, then that’s that, it’s impossible to play against and they’ll just sweep away everything in their path. I noticed it’s better to get rid of them when you’re playing against him.
In general, he’s improved a great deal in recent years, at some point after 2002. He’s a chess player of genius, but previously he didn’t work enough, by and large.
V.T.: But how has he managed to improve? Did marriage help?
V.K.: Perhaps. He’s matured, while previously he lacked the character to become World Champion. I remember in 1995 against Kasparov it was enough just to poke him a little and he simply fell apart. In the match against me things were completely different. Plus, he’s started to work a great deal and now his opening preparation is among the best, if not the best. At the given moment I don’t see who can compete with him when he’s on form. Perhaps only Carlsen in his very best condition, though probably not. I think he’ll only leave the stage when he weakens himself and ceases to maintain that extremely high level.
V.T.: His weaknesses?
V.K.: The trouble is there almost aren’t any…"
The thesis must be of sufficient merit to provoke discussion. If you want to argue you must first propound your points with some evidence that can be taken seriously. Your "facts" re Kasparov are pure, unadulterated, waffle which shows you to have a good imagination but to be incapable of any objective discussion on this topic. Btw nobody is denying Anand is excellent.
@PircAlert:
First of all, I don't think anyone is trying to claim that Anand is not one of the greatest players of all time, but your attempts to "prove" that he is THE greatest don't show much of an understanding of the matter.
You don't give much "weightage" to results in major classical tournaments, but a six-round rapid event is a good basis for determining a top player's strength? Please.
And what's all this about Kasparov's opposition in his early days (before Anand emerged, I take it?) being "weak" - so weak, in fact, that he "had to ... play Karpov"! Oh dear. You know, Karpov too is an eligible candidate for the top-player-of-all-time spot. He has an absolutely crushing tournament record - but of course, again, rapid is what really matters.
Anand is a great player and a great sportsman; no one needs your weird ad hoc arguments and ignorant deprecation of other players to see that.
Leo,
"...but your attempts to "prove" that he(Anand) is THE greatest don't show much of an understanding of the matter."
By understanding of matter you mean understanding of chess or understanding of chess politics? And please explain how I don't have the understanding?
"You don't give much "weightage" to results in major classical tournaments, but a six-round rapid event is a good basis for determining a top player's strength? Please."
You may not agree but that is my point. To give more weightage to a external-factor-influenceable classical tournament result than a random-element-involved rapid, you would need to adjust tournament cross table. Probably split it into 2 with top half getting more weightage than rapid and the bottom half getting much less weight.
"Anand is a great player and a great sportsman; no one needs your weird ad hoc arguments and ignorant deprecation of other players to see that."
Don't mistake me. Certain things I am forced to bring in like the the strength of competition to counter argument like "how dominant he was" in favor of Kasparov to take out any misconceptions. But I am not saying Kasparov is not one of the greatest. He is. But he is NOT the greatest of all time as some people make him out to be. But Anand fits the bill for the greatest of all time! (If he doesn't, again please explain how. Or who do you think fits the bill and how?)
@PircAlert,
it wasn't really my intention to start any sort of debate, but ...
Perhaps it was a poor choice of words, but by "understanding of the matter" I simply mean an appreciation of, or general clue about, different players' accomplishments throughout the years (I don't see how any "chess politics" would be in play here; if you mean some sort of lobbying to determine who is the best, most of it seems to be done by you). Obviously you measure these accomplishments in a different way, and that´s fine, but you can't claim to have proven anything, any more than I or anyone else can.
I have no idea what you mean by your "external-factor-influencable" statement etc., and I don't understand how a rapid competition could possibly be more indicative of a player's comparative strength than a classical tournament - and we are talking about a career perspective, not a single event matched to another. I'm sure you've thought this through and are ready to explain it to me in detail, but let's save each other the trouble and agree to disagree.
You say Kasparov was not the greatest, but Anand is; that's a perfectly valid opinion. (I'm not sure what to think myself - if someone put a gun to my head I guess I would say Kasparov is my man, and as I said before, Karpov was a real beast too in his day.) You will notice that I used the word "opinion" instead of "fact" there, because that's all any of this can ever be, unless we 1) drag statistics into it, in which case Kasparov or Karpov would clearly come out on top, or 2) examine their actual games, which I'm not really qualified to do, and I'm betting you're not either.
In conclusion: root for whomever you like, Anand is a good choice, but don't pretend you can make anything a fact with bogus comparisons, or that a rapid win matters one iota in this context.
Over and out :)
Leo,
[quote]unless we 1) drag statistics into it, in which case Kasparov or Karpov would clearly come out on top,[/quote]
How?
Say, you run a shop but you run it only during some festive seasons where your sales are high. You shut your shop other times. What good is this statistic to compare with the sales performance of a shop that runs throughout the year? unless you do some adjustments for seasonal factors?
Is this what you call it statistics? Is that how Kasparov and Karpov stand above others??
Chortle. You just get better and better. And Anand who hasn't played in six months.
When did the the K's shut up shop? Have you any idea of how those two utterly dominated chess for many years? Are you at all aware of their contributions? In fact, do you have any idea at all of chess history? I suggest you buy a few volumes of the "Predecessors", will do you the world of good!
Reread Leo's post, it was a very good one. Over and out : )
Yes, I have some ideas of those two. One (Karpov) didn't play the preliminaries but pressurized russian federation to seed himself into the final and wouldn't allow Anand a break. All he managed was a level score in the classical part. If Anand had more time for preparation, he would have torn him apart. Another (Kasparov) played a private match where there was no supervision, no sorts of securing of seconds etc. Fearling loss he ducked Anand whenever there was a chance afterwards. How Smyslov could play upto 63 years? Is that the competition these two "dominated"?? Why wouldn't these two play until their 63 years? You don't need volumes to be written about great "Successors". The fact that they drove their predecessors out to an early retirement proves it all!!
Sigh. (Note to self: Feed troll at own risk.)
Classical games: Garry Kasparov beat Viswanathan Anand 16 to 6, with 32 draws.
Including rapid/exhibition games: Garry Kasparov beat Viswanathan Anand 26 to 8, with 43 draws.
Only rapid/exhibition games: Garry Kasparov beat Viswanathan Anand 10 to 2, with 11 draws.
Chessgames 10-2 in rapids for Kasparov vs Anand is an error because of inability to classify many games. It was more like a tie, although Gary player very few rapid tournaments and never played Amber.
Well, those above that question Kasparov's brilliance, especially as he ended the dominance of another Boa Constrictor ; Well, let me ask you, how many humans do you know that have beaten the strongest Chess computer , well while you think of an answer, Do you wish to illustrate to me How Anand has shown his genius on the floor the way Kasparov did in his hay days....!!!! Like taking that last game against Karpov in amazing fashion, when a draw was all that was req'd to secure the Title. He went for the WIN, and shocked Karpov.
The say, 'Good players see good moves, but great ones make great moves happen... Kasparov is among the likes of : Botvinnik, Alekhine, Capablanca... so where is Anand????
I dont even rate Fischer as great as the others, cause he was a one hit wonder!!! He never came out again to live under pressure, and only conquered one Russian Hero, but Kasparov has played them all....
Have a nice day bud...
"Do you wish to illustrate to me How Anand has shown his genius on the floor the way Kasparov did in his hay days....!!!! Like taking that last game against Karpov in amazing fashion, when a draw was all that was req'd to secure the Title. He went for the WIN, and shocked Karpov."
But where was the shocker when Kasparov played Kramnik? Shock got absorbed that he settled for a for 13 or so move draw when he needed a win? Oh this was not in his hay days, right? hmm. how did he get that 2850 rating?!!! (cross examination question). What was Karparov's age then when he played Kramnik?
Anyway, Anand has even gone a step further! When a 12-game match is criticized and complained about for not having enough games to prove oneself (Kasparov, Karpov need at least 12-games for chicken out draws like I know your preparation, you know my preparation, let us do a 10 move draw and we will let our seconds do a better work for the next game!), without complaining about the jet lag or needed time for settlement, Anand fought back from a game down in the sofia match and fully dominated the event. It was like a game odd match! Yet it wasn't a seesaw battle like between Kasparov and Karpov where you never knew until the last moment. Again in the final game Anand bravely fought the wild game with a never before seen precision only he can match! It is not just a game or win, it is a win with accuracy in sharp positions where move after move after move precision is required.
I'm afraid nothing much is there to tell about Anand's hay days as he has to play off the board games from Keene.
@PircAlert:
(can't resist another shot ...)
It's really quite adorable how you extol Anand (as if no one else could have shown the same "accuracy in sharp positions") and discredit Kasparov at every possible opportunity; that is your right, of course, but it makes me wonder just how much you really know about the game.
And your comments on Anand-Topalov (for the record, I was pleased to see Anand prevail): Evidently Anand was the better player in a well-fought match, and there is no doubt he is a worthy champion, but I'm not sure I would say he "fully dominated the event", or that "it wasn't a seesaw battle ... where you didn't know until the very last moment". Excuse me, but isn't that kind of exactly what it was? The match was after all only decided in the last game.
I actually sort of envy you. It must be very liberating to be able to just disregard the rules of logic, common sense and semantics that the rest of us follow like chumps.
(Now you're gonna ask me how your logic is flawed and give me more examples of how Anand is great and everyone else fake, that I won't respond to 'cause I've made my point and now I'm done, so let me just fast-forward it for you and say:
Take care, man!)
i think Anand should be considered as one of the greatest ever, even Kramnik said there is no way Anand is weaker than Kasparov, also Kramnik said Anand is the best with Knights
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Not nearly all people can play chess. The reason for this is that when they are little they do not play it. It is totally different with people in several years ago who have no idea about technology.
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Nice to see it continuing its new habit of sacrificing pieces, this time against, though it ended in draw. I thought it was headed for a typically win over Aronian with a tempoing bishop in the endgame, but it ended in a draw quickly.
Now chess is not a well-liked. The reason for this is that people have greater option to play game. Chess will be categorised as among the many subculture game.
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Not lots of individuals can play chess. The reason for this is that once they are little they don't play it. It is completely different with individuals in different years in the past who have no idea about technology.
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Not many individuals can play chess. For the reason that once they are little they do not play it. It is varied with guys in numerous years ago who have no idea about technology.
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Not many people can play chess. It is because when they are little they do not play it. That's varied with men or women in different years in the past who do not know about technology.
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Nowadays, chess associated with from the old school online video sport. This kind of board game just isn't familiar with the young people. Now, these people play system online video sport regarding having a good time.
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People who accept engineering might not understand chess. They might know it in the particular virtual game. The particular board game continues to be still quit by individuals.
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Those who experience technology might not know chess. They could understand it but in the particular electronic online video sport. The actual game may be left simply by simply people.
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Individuals who skip to experience chess can enjoy in the pc. Digital camera recreation model may be for sale in a number of types. People can choose which is the greatest.
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People who live with technology may not know chess. They may know it but in the virtual game. The board game has been left by people.
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Today, chess is a component of with the old school game. This type of game isn't familiar with the young adults. Currently, these people play system recreation with regard to having fun.
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People who accept technology might not know mentally stimulating games. They may know it however in the actual virtual game. The game has been remaining simply by simply folks.
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Chess is really a traditional game. It has been enjoyed since a long time ago. Next, now it is made in digicam model to produce the actual youthful technology realize it.
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Chess is a classic game. It has been played since a long time ago. Then, now it is made in the digital version to make the young generation know it.
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