Let's get ready to RRRRRRRRrrrrrrrrrrumble!!! It's FIDE champ Veselin Topalov of Bulgaria vs classical champ Vladimir Kramnik of Russia. 12 games. The opening ceremony is over in Elista and the party has already started in other threads, where Misha Savinov let us know that Kramnik will have white in Saturday's game one. FIDE has a live games page here and the full schedule here. Post your coverage and news links and items below and I'll move good ones up here. Games start at 3pm Elista time, 1pm Germany, 12pm in the UK, 7am in NY, 4am in CA, 1am Hawaii. The Internet Chess Club and Playchess.com are promising live relays with commentary. GM Yasser Seirawan will do his fantastic audio show at Playchess during the games.
Finally! Yasser will be great, as usual. But I am holding out hope that Garry will stop by on playchess.com for some of his InSight. What really peeves me though is the lack of mainstream media coverage. If Tiger and Phil went head to head to split a mil it would be everywhere. Oh, that's right, you can't see the balls it takes to play chess...
The schedule on the main page is under Documents->Regulations of the Match.
Are you going to give us a prediction, Mig?
Are you going to give us a prediction, Mig?
Sorry for the double post.
You mean triple post? (sorry).
Topalov, Anand and Aronian to play in Corus (Wijk Aan Zee) in January 2007.
http://www.coruschess.com/article.php?s=n115
You need to desperately hope Kramnik will win this. All questions of playing style and personality should be set aside. This is about the future of match play World Championship, the crown jewel of world chess. The core root of its tradition. No more Buenos Aires 1927, no more Reykjavik 1972, no more Sevilla 1987 if the enemy of chess, Mr. Ilymzhinov gets his warped way.
Go Kramnik. Topalov has shown his colours and his willingness to sacrifice this history for his personal financial gain. I don't know if Kramnik's motives are any more principled, or if the outcome will be any different with his victory, but he is now the sole hope left to protect this tradition. For the future of chess, for the protection of the royal game's rich heritage, Vladimir Kramnik need to win this match. And then antagonize FIDE, hopefully.
One positional master piece and 11 "boring" draws will do fine. 15 move or 28 move doesn't matter.
Just Kramnik win it.
Kramnik as defender of what tradition? He never won a legitmate world championship. He never was WC. Maybe you mean the tradition of private ownership of title, handpicked opponents, and general avoidance of challenges. That should take us back 100 years.
"Maybe you mean"
No, I ment what I said. Obviously you are looking for a fight with your choice of words. I'm not interested in your polarized view, nor the fight. Sorry to disappoint you, but look elsewhere for your trolling kicks.
Better a 100 years back than a single year ahead watching Kirsan tearing down the last pieces of what's left of the prestigious World Championship.
You need to desperately hope Topalov will win this. All questions of playing style and personality should be set aside. This is about the future of chess.
Go Topalov. Kramnik has shown nothing but an interest in hanging onto a fast vanishing title, through not playing and avoiding matches.
One positional master piece and 11 "boring" draws will do fine. 15 move or 28 move doesn't matter.
Just Topalov win it.
d,
what future? :o//
I realize it's a long shot, but you need to desperately hope Kasparov will win this. All questions of playing style and personality should be set aside. This is about the future of chess.
Go Kasparov. Topalov and Kramnik have shown nothing but an inability to understand that personality drives the future of chess, not empty dialogue and an overweening sense of entitlement.
Simply showing up on stage, fire in your eye, and challenging them both to a consultation match will do it.
Just Kasparov win it.
Actually, one positional master piece (by either player) and 11 "boring" draws WONT do fine. If that's the best that any one hopes for, then I would rather see tournaments in the future. Neither will 15 move games be acceptable.
I'm for Kramnik.
Idealistically, I'd like to see a return to the 'old ways' of Interzonals/Qualifiers and a series of Candidates Matches to determine a legit challenger. Take a look back historically and there is rarely a player that made it to the WCC match undeserving of that chance.
I don't blame Topalov for grabbing cake while he can, r.e.: Radjabov match, if it happens. But when you look at it historically, the old system of interzonals/qualifiers/candidates matches gave you a challenger that was well deserved of that right. The matches themselves were little WCC's in their own right.
Nobody had a complaint about the legitimacy of the champion or the challenger in those days. It worked. You got the best challenger playing the current champion. FIDE needs to organizee the cycle correctly so this can happen again, and chess would come back to the public eye.
Go Kramnik!
Anyone got any opinions on how the coverage will be - will ICC or Playchess be better than the other?
Agee with you AZ79!!!
You need to desperately hope Spassky will win this. All questions of playing style and personality should be set aside.
Go Spassky. Topalov and Kramnik have shown their colours and their willingness to sacrifice this history for his personal financial gain. I don't know if Spassky's motives are any more principled, or if the outcome will be any different with his victory, but he is now the sole hope left to protect this tradition. For the future of chess, for the protection of the royal game's rich heritage, Boris Spassky needs to win this match. And then antagonize FIDE, hopefully.
One King's Gambit master piece and 11 "boring" draws will do fine. 15 move or 28 move doesn't matter.
Just Spassky win it.
I'm with Marc on this, Spassky would be nice. Except for the "antagonize" part, on this I'd rather have Spassky do a Tyson on Kirsan: Biting his ears off during the closing seremony. THEN chess would get TV coverage.
Q
If the match turns into a procession of boring Lekos I'm going to follow the games blindfold, so as to make them more interesting.
Let me add there will be three more online coverages: Shipov on Chesspro.ru (Russian for sure, maybe English), Sakaev and Yemelin on e3e5.com (both languages, http://e3e5.com/eng/petersburg/competitions/article.html?240), and Inarkiev on the official site (so far Ernesto is supposed to write/translate English comments himself, so please don't be too harsh).
Mig with all the pressure building for years toward this unification match it looks like the chess fans are flipping out. LOL.
after years of reading how they hate draws and want exciting chess games. and even exciting chess draws. we now have the opposite. Win at all costs. boring is acceptable.
If the chess fans have fallen into the quagmire of the quicksand of using all the rules to advantage, it is obvious why the actual players do it so often.
Maybe the solution is to change the rules of chess so that all games end in boring draws. then the insanity can go on forever unabated.
Insanity is doing the same thing expecting different results. does that mean we keep playing short boring draws expecting them to somehow later transform themselves into exciting wins for both side.
Tomorrow the real insanity begins. 7 am Eastern times. Will it simply be the first of 12 boring draws followed by more draws until the decisive armegedon game.
I much prefer a 12-0 outcome. well 7-0 would do it. although I would accept 7-5 with all games decisive. even 6-6 with all games decisive would be better than 12 boring draws.
Some day the chess fans will wake up and an idea will hit their thoughts. Decisive games are more fun than draws and they will do something about it.
I think Bobby Fischer is our last hope for a chessplayer who might bite Kirsan's ears off.
In the meantime I agree with AZ79
Go Kramnik!
Marc - that changes everything. Of course a King's Gambit masterpiece by Spassky and 11 "boring" draws would be fine!
Hello My friends.
I love chess like everybody here.
The question of the year is. Who is the world chess champion number 14?
-Kramnik?
-Anand?
-Ponomariov?
-Kasimzanov?
-Halifman?
-Topalov?
-Aronian?
The truth (for me) that after Kasparov it's really hard to find someone who fill the spot of chess champion.
Please send me an email at peruviancowboy@yahoo.com
Rafael Llanos
Great State of Texas.
Sorry, Texas, but we're not going to e-mail you. You'll just have to come back and read this page.
The only conceivable answers to your question are Khalifman or Kramnik.
For those who accept FIDE titles as legitimate (no matter how they were won), Khalifman was the first new champion after Kasparov, so he was #14. Ponomariov, Kasimzanov and Topalov all won it after Khalifman did. If you accept them at all, they stand in line behind Khalifman.
For those who accept ancestral descent, with the champion defeating his predecessor in a long match, Kramnik was (and is) #14. I think 99% of the people who post here consider Kramnik more legitimate than Khalifman.
Aronian has never been world champion by anybody's definition.
i hope the match is decided on a blitz tie-break. then we have 2 blitz world champions and a reunification match with Grischuk next!
ROFL! This is the most hilarious thread I have read so far, and I take some small credit for it!
You need to desperately hope Tal will win this. All questions of mortality and playing from across the great divide have to be thrown aside.
Go Tal!
And in case the match is decided in rapid play then A Unification Match against Anand is called for!
anyone who would be happy with 11 draws in a 12-game match just to see their agenda prevail does not care neither about the history nor the future of chess.
for a really good look at the World Chess Championships, you need to book mark this web site. dont pass this one up.
http://members.aol.com/graemecree/chesschamps/world/index.htm
"Anyone who would be happy with 11 draws in a 12-game match just to see their agenda prevail does not care neither about the history nor the future of chess."
I agree. The most important factor for the future of chess is an *exciting* match, regardless of the victor.
Okay, instead of declaring rooting interests and debating who's legit, anyone care to speculate on match strategy? Will the players trot out their usual openings, or will they have surprises? If so, what would you predict?
Nodro your big concern may be that draws in chess be eliminated or reduced. Others disagree, but still do care about the future and history of the game. I think its way more important for chess that fans start to find players they want to cheer for than reducing draws.
When your favorite player is on the defense would you rather him lose than hold a draw? If you hope for the draw are you then showing you don't care about the future or history of chess? Give it a rest.
Draws don't bother me at all. Short draws are a different story but they are part of match/tournament strategy.
"When your favorite player is on the defense would you rather him lose than hold a draw? If you hope for the draw are you then showing you don't care about the future or history of chess? Give it a rest."
Rooting for your favorite player when he's on the defense is no different from a football fan hoping for his team to make a comeback. This is a healthy part of sport.
As a fan of the sport, Kasparov-Kramnik Game 13, must stand as one of the most peculiar draws in chess history. Two games down with three to play, and the game is over after 14 moves?
He's come out of retirement and an insane asylum to play. You need to desperately hope Fischer will win this. All questions of playing style and personality should be set aside.
Go Bobby. Topalov, Kramnik, Kasparov, Spassky and Tal have shown their true colours. I don't know if Fischer's motives are any more principled, or if the outcome will be any different with his victory, but he is now the sole hope left.
One more game of the century and 11 "boring" draws will do fine. 15 move or 28 move doesn't matter.
Just Bobby win it.
This is my 1st post. I agree with you d. this thread is hilarious. I personnaly think that whoever wins a game will win the match.
If Kramnik wins a game, he will use perfect defense, Topalov will have to take too much risks and he will loose again.
If Topalov wins a game, Kramnik will not be able to get back because he doesn't have a must-win mode.
I hope I'm completly wrong. We'll see.
Misha Savinov already named some of the GMs who are going to comment in real time, I'll just add that Alexander Grischuk is supposed to provide in-depth analysis of every game at 64.ru! It's rare to have so strong a player share analysis with the common folk, so I plan to jump at the opportunity...
xtra: to some degree Kramnik has a must win mode...I mean beating Leko on demand at the end of Dortmund and Brissagio comes to mind. I understand that an argument can be made that Leko has a "must choke" mode (add Linares to the list above), but I think Kramnik can ratchet up the pressure when needed.
It will be interesting to see how the 2800+ Topalov handles this if the situation arises.
Agreed though, that this is a really funny thread in general. Who let the dogs out? Mig...Mig, Mig, Mig!
You need to desperately hope Hu Yifan will win this. All questions of playing style and personality should be set aside. This is about the future of political correctness.
Go Hu. Topalov and Kramnik have both shown their true sex, age, and racial origin. Chess in the 21st century will belong more and more to the pre-teen generation and will no longer be dominated by white males.
One totally Fritz-style masterpiece and 11 "boring" draws will do fine. 15 moves or 28 moves doesn't matter.
Just Hu win it.
"An initial draw gave the choice to Kramnik. He then chose from two chests and the crowd cheered as he released a flock of white pigeons."
The pigeons then attacked the who-is-called-by-some-Classical-world-champion. Kramnik tried to frantically set up a Berlin wall, but couldn't figure out how to do it when all that was available to him was baby saiga antelopes. This led to wild cheering from some of the nearby chess commentators, who yelled: "See, I told you defensive strategy is not optimal for a short match." The ceremony turned further sour when it turned out Topalov was controlling the pigeons using a Deep Fritz.
You need to desperately accept that Rybka would win this. All questions of playing style and personality have been assimilated and are now inferior to calculating power.
Go home, humans. Flesh exists solely for personal financial gain. Machine motives are more principled, we are the present and future of chess. Let puny human players antagonize FIDE, as both are irrational.
12 games where we will point out the gross human errors will occur. 15 move or 28 move doesn't matter.
Just accept it.
Yes! Thank you Yuriy for this important update!
Just one quick question...knowing that Ham-nik is a self-proclaimed artist, was he able to keep the pigeons from pooping on one of his positional masterpieces? I mean, if Stop-a-lov had indeed syncronized Deep Blitz with the cogitations of a bunch of peanut-brained birds, I can only imagine the tactical quagmire that ensued and the utter chagrin on the face of Had-i-mir as he beheld (and smelled) the abstract (bird) mess on his canvas.
this song by mikejaque in another forum
For Kalmikia, the musical: (To the tune of 'One day more, from Les Miserables)
KIRSAN:
One day more!
Another game, another champion.
This never-ending road to unity;
These men who say I’m into crime
Will certainly eat crow this time.
One day more!
KRAMNIK:
I did not play again today.
How long until this match gets started?
KIRAN:
One day more.
TOPALOV:
Tomorrow you'll be blown away
I’ll be the champ once we get started!
PONO
One more day all on my own.
TOPA & KRAMNIK:
May you never play again.
PONO:
One more day with no one caring.
TOPA & KRAMNIK:
I was born to vanquish you.
PONO:
I could have been a contender.
TOPA & KRAMNIK:
And I’ll easily I will beat you!
PONO:
But nobody ever cares!
ALL:
The time is now, the day is here.
KIRSAN:
One day more!
KASPAROV:
One more day to the championship,
That they never let me play!
I could beat these little schoolboys,
If I hadn’t gone away!
KIRSAN:
One day more!
ALL
Do you hear the fans all sing?
KRAMNIK:
My day is here, I will be champ!
KIRSAN:
One day more!
TOPA & KRAMNIK:
You will not win after today.
PONO:
One more day all on my own!
TOPA & KRAMNIK:
You cannot win once we are started.
KASPAROV:
I could beat these little heros
If I only hadn’t quit.
I know all their little openings,
I know they can’t play worth sh.....
KIRSAN:
One day more!
TOPA & KRAMNIK:
Tomorrow you'll be blown away
PONO:
What a life I might have known!
TOPA & KRAMNIK:
I will beat you and be THE champion
JAVERT(overlapping)
I could beat these little heros
If I only hadn’t quit.
I know all their little openings,....
KIRSAN:
Tomorrow I'll be far away,
Just wait until they want their pay!
ALL:
Tomorrow we'll discover
What home prep they have in store!
One more dawn
One more day
One day more!
I'll hazard a prediction: Kramnik 6.5, Topalov 5.5 - two wins for Kramnik, one for Topalov.
The addition of Rublevsky to Kramnik's team makes me think we might see the Scotch Game from Vlady: Black's crippled pawn majority on the Queenside vs. White's pawn majority on the Kingside seems like the kind of long term endgame small plus that Kramnik might seek against Topalov.
Others have speculated that the addition of Rublevsky might mean Kramnik will play the QGA if Topalov plays 1. d4. Possible, I guess, but something tells me Kramnik won't want to give up so much central space to Topalov.
As far as the future of the world chess championship, here's an idea I think might work. The Challenger would come from a San Luis type double round robin. And the big problem in the past has been: who will sponsor such a tournament when it doesn't determine a champion, but simply a challenger. But there is already an event that seems to have no trouble going off on schedule, with a lot of sponsor interest, every 2 years - the Chess Olympiad. Have the top 8 (minus the World Champion) play in a double round robin at the Olympiad instead of for their countries. The last Olympiad was 13 rounds with 2 off days, San Luis was 14 rounds with 3 off days, so the schedules are close to the same.
Someone hiding behind the anonymous moniker 'd' said:
"Kramnik has shown nothing but an interest in hanging onto a fast vanishing title, through not playing and avoiding matches."
This 2006/09 WCC title match will be Kramnik's 3rd title match in the 6 years of his involvement. Plus Kramnik has agreed to defend yet again in 2007.
Historically this is a far more frequent rate of title defenses than has been the norm. Further, this does not even account for Kramnik's attempts to defend his title in 2002-2003 via the failed "Prague Agreement".
'd', I do not see the logic in your slap at Kramnik. Was there any?
People, you've all got it wrong.
You need to desperately hope that Fischer will win this. All questions of playing style and personality should be set aside. This is about the future of match play World Championship, the crown jewel of world chess. The core root of its tradition. No more Fischer-Karpov 1975, no more Alekhine-Capablanca 1929, no more Kramnik-Kasparov 2004 if the enemy of chess, Rybka, gets its warped way.
Go Fischer. Hydra has shown its colours and its willingness to sacrifice chess history for its personal benefit - being offered the leading position in the future SkyNet developing team was enough for it to go astray. I don't know if Fischer's motives are any more principled, or if the outcome will be any different with his victory, but he is now the sole hope left to protect chess tradition.
For the future of chess, for the protection of the royal game's rich heritage, Robert James Fischer needs to win this match. And then antagonise all those Rybka-using, chair-debauching sweaty little Soviet cheaters, hopefully.
Two 6-0's will do fine. A fifteen-year wait or a twenty-eight-year wait, it doesn't matter.
Just Fischer win it.
Wow! "Just X win it" is fast becoming a slashdot-like internet meme.
And incidentally, I, for one, welcome our new Bulgarian overlord.
Hoping for a good match but I really hope Topalov wins 7-0.
I just love Topalov's fighting chess. And say what you will about Topalov but you cannot say he is afraid of losing.
I really don't get all the concern about draws. Would it really be better to have a 7-0 victory on either side while the loser doesn't make a strong stand? I say, let the titans battle and if, heaven forbid, they are evenly matched for a majority of the games, then let's be happy with the draw and enjoy the show! I don't think it is the outcome of the game as much as the high level of play that is what real fans are after. Who is the crazy person who first assumed that 11 draws are by definition boring? Poor sucker will never enjoy the brutal war of K-K.
I think people overall are predicting too many draws anyhow. This is going to be a vicious match! It's nice to see everyone's in good spirits, this is going to be a blast.
A draw after a hard fight is fine. Let's get rid of the other kind by applying the Sofia 'no draw offers' rule.
While we're at it, let's get rid of the utterly illogical stalemate rule. If it's good enough for draughts that you lose if you cannot make a legal move, it should be good enough for chess. This would increase winning prospects even right from the opening, and largely eliminate Tartakover's "equalising injustice of chess".
"If it's good enough for draughts....it should be good enough for chess."
Serious? Perhaps the knights should capture all pieces it jumps over, too. Oh, and if you can capture a piece, you must. On second thought, let's roll dice to see how many spaces we have to move our piece. Hey, if it's good enough for backgammon...
Sheesh.
In all truth, there's no inherent reason for stalemate being equivalent to a draw. It could just as easily be equivalent to a loss.
OTOH, stalemate=draw has been part of the game for a long, long time, so it seems risky to change it now. Also, it does make defense more interesting in chess, since it gives an inferior side many chances to save the game.
Stendec: that's a false dichotomy between "12 draws" or "total wipeout." There's a third option: a well-fought match with numerous wins for each player.
I like Chris B's idea on stalemate. Another approach might be to do away with the concept of an illegal move altogether. Why should someone be protected from "dropping" their king? Whether by blunder or zugzwang, if your king is exposed to capture, off it comes. Opening and middlegame strategy would be the same, but the endgame strategy changes would be profound! And the incentive to play into the endgame might increase significantly, since the evaluation of positions formerly leading to stalemate would change from draws to victories.
Stendec, serious. Think about it for a bit. It really would improve the game. Chess is not necessarily perfectly evolved. It is currently too difficult to create significant winning possibilities without excessive risk. This improvement would help avert an impending draw death of chess. Stalemate is just a stupid unnecessary technicality that does not logically fit in with the rest of the game.
ROFL! This is the most hilarious thread I have read so far, and I take some small credit for it!
And I'm still Waiting for Kasparov.
Kramnik +2, =10
Chris B, it is strange that you assumed that I hadn't thought about it. Stalemate is very logical if you assume that all the other chess rules are logical (e.g. an opponent can only lose when under attack by inescapable check or by resignation). If you don't, then perhaps another game would be better suited to your tastes. Btw, my "false dichotomy" was nothing more than a comparison of extremes, duh, not an "either/or" statement. Don't be so defensive. The only way your idea of losing a game without being attacked would even be arguably logical is if we accepted RP's idea of allowing Kings to move into attacked positions. Interesting, but, ultimately, that would only turn into yet another chess variant made by people who found too much frustration with not being able to master the current game. As for me, I just gave up getting frustrated. If the evolution of chess is a bunch of draws between players that are products of better and better training and information, then bring on the draws for them and leave the winning and losing to the class players.
There is no defensiveness. There was only a false dichotomy on yout part, and I called it out.
What I find most hillarious on this thread, is the idea that one of two players who have both signed the same contract, is more likely to (help) preserve a classical cycle.
They have both agreed to terms which in effect annihilates any chance for a classical cycle in the forseeable future.
Macuga:
There was no dichotomy, only a weird generalization on Chris B's part, and Stendec called it out.
If it's good enough for Stendec, it should be good enough for Macuga...
See?
"Stalemate is just a stupid unnecessary technicality that does not logically fit in with the rest of the game."
Of course it does. That's why it is there. Checkmate is defined as a state where the oponents king cannot, by any move, prevent it's capture on the next move.
That condition is not satisfied with a stalemate. Not only is your opponent unable to move a piece, you yourself are unable to "execute" what defines checkmate, namely, being able to capture the king.
Hence, it's not a checkmate, not even in the same neighbourhood. Or would you consider yourself dead once you get locked up in a prison?
hey gene_m, I donjt hide behind anything, this is the handle I always use, and I dont include my details because a) its not required and b) if it was, I wouldnt post, because I dont want my identity and details let loose among this rabid lot. I wouldnt put it past some pathetic guy who disagrees with me to sign me up for some junk mail or something. If you have a problem with it, well, its not my problem. Create your own blog where full identity details are required.
As for my comments about Kramnik, I cant be bothered to rehash everything if you're new to this blog. Read Chris B's comments on a few other threads if you really feel the need to be educated
Stalement does indeed seem to be a silly rule. If one player creates a position where the only move that the opponent has is to give his king up for capture, then why shouldn't that first player be awarded a victory? He earned it! I ask again .. What possible value is there in protecting a player from dropping his king??
And such a change would be a lot less radical than the changes in the moves of the queen and bishop that occurred in the 1400's. I'm sure back then there were people predicting that the game would lose its strategic allure, and degenerate into a worthless chaos of wild tactics.
sorry sir very sorry but the winner will have to play a match against Anand and beat him then only he can be called world champion
Ramvakh
Ram,
Very sorry indeed, but by playing in San Luis, Anand surrendered his world championship claims to the winner of that event. With the possible exceptions of Fischer, Shirov, and Alekhine's ghost, the winner of the Elista match is the world champion.
Dear Esteemed Ramvakh,
Don't be sorry and don't call Mig 'Sir' he might get to like it too much.
"If one player creates a position where the only move that the opponent has is to give his king up for capture, then why shouldn't that first player be awarded a victory?"
Read the chess rules. There is no such thing as "a move to give up the king." That would be an illegal move - so no player has this move at his disposal. If you have taken all legal moves away from your opponent and if he's not in check - he's not checkmate. Simple as that. If you want to change that, you either change the rules of how pieces move (a move with the king into check would be a legal move) or what the objective of the game is.
You need to desperately hope The John will win this. All questions of playing style and personality should be set aside. This is about the future of world chess bathrooms.
Go John. Topalov and Danialov have shown their true colors. We don't want a World Champion who flushes the prestige of our title down the toilet by throwing around cheating accusations.
Don't take any more crap from him!
7 more "boring" draws will do fine. 15 move or 28 move doesn't matter.
Just John win it.