Greengard's ChessNinja.com

No Game Sunday

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Two sources by email and this item on the web say there won't be a game six (five) today in Elista. This FIDE press release just came out at the official site. It says that after negotiations the bathroom issue has been solved (they remain private) and the appeals committee has been dismissed, replaced by Ilyumzhinov (surprise surprise) until replacements arrive. Still, it's a blow to the anti-unification forces inside FIDE, most of which were on the appeals committee. But their mission may have already been accomplished. They turned an obnoxious provocation into a potentially cancelled reunification match.

That leaves the unspecified unsettled issues. That, of course, is 3:2 vs 3:1: should the game 5 forfeit of Kramnik stand? Legalistically speaking, and though Kramnik's team has complained about technicalities regarding the timing of Topalov's complaint, the restroom lockout that led to the forfeit was carried out by the appointed appeals committee. But with that committee being dismissed it opens the door to a reversal. But the big question is whether or not Topalov will play at 3:1 or Kramnik at 3:2.

Just as I was about to post this, the same Bulgarian "Focus" site put up a new item:

“We made a compromise and agreed Mr. Kramnik to use the toilet in his restroom," Topalov’s manager Silvio Danailov said. “We decided he would use one and the same room, we gave him the bigger one. The president of the International Chess Federation (FIDE) Kirsan Nikolayevich Ilyumzhinov called the Minister of Construction of Kalmikiya to cooperate the two toilets to be knocked down and new ones to be build under the supervision of Bulgarian experts. We, however, refused. We decided it was enough for us to check the toilet couple of hours before each game”.

However, the issue with the result remains unsolved. Kramnik insists the match should continue with a 3:1 result. The position of the Bulgarian team is that the 3:2 result has been fixed by the judge and it is impossible to be changed. “If the result of the fifth game is cancelled we are leaving the match. It is unacceptable Kramnik to play games with everyone and most of all with FIDE and the organizers,” Mr. Danailov comments.

That just in case anyone still thought this BS about toilet trips was anything more than a provocation. I wonder how much money Ilyumzhinov will have to cough up. He should just call in Hensel and Danailov and auction off the point. I was thinking it was 30:70 that Topalov would play at 1:3 and 10:90 that Kramnik would play at 3:2. From these latest remarks it may be worse than even those odds. This Topalov site is updating regularly. Kramnik's official site is as well, but less frequently and mostly just press release links.

Thanks to those who pointed out that the match rules state the players will only be paid upon completion of the match. However, I maintain doubts they don't have substantial money in the bank already. Let's not forget Danailov cancelled and got paid in 2003 and his client Ponomariov didn't even have to play a single game against Kasparov in Yalta. He's losing his touch! (And a poke in the eye to everyone who said I was just being "pro-Kasparov" when I said Danailov was a weasel back then. He wouldn't be allowed into a weasel convention at this point.)

Tidbit: Long-time Kramnik associate Joel Lautier was on Russian radio yesterday and said something to the effect that Kramnik had a "rare illness" that required him to go to the bathroom all the time.

Update: I was just told that a Russian report says Ilyumzhinov offered 3-1 but playing the match to 16 games and Kramnik said no. Then 3-1 and 14 games and Kramnik said no. Interesting idea that hadn't occured to me. Kramnik is being supported in this by Zhukov, Russian federation prez.


Silvio Danailov: "We decided it was enough for us to check the toilet couple of hours before each game”.

Now, Silvio, you should also be asked to dust the toilet before each game - it seems the exact place you are belonging! I would even trust you to wipe everyone’s lover back during entire games ;-)

“If the result of the fifth game is cancelled we are leaving the match. It is unacceptable Kramnik to play games with everyone and most of all with FIDE and the organizers,” Mr. Danailov comments.
ROFL. Who's playing games.

Unfortunately the bathroom issue and the appeal committe issue are the minor ones. the big one is of courst the score
I suspect Kirsan came back to Elista and basically told Topa's team that the bathrooms are staying the way they are, and then fired the committe (oh wait, they resigned voluntarily - yeah right).
Of course the big issue now is the result of game 5. Kramnik will never ever continue the match at 3-2, and at the moment it looks like Topalov won't replay game 5. I think Topalov should realize that no-one would have any respect for him as a spotsman if he accepts a win like that, and this is his big chance to gain some public goodwill. If he were to come out and say that he wants the championship to be decided on the board, not off it, then he could regain some respect.
I can say a lot of bad things about Kirsan, but stupid is not one of them. He knows which way the public opinion is going, and based on this mornings press release, which basically agrees with Kramnik on all accounts, it seems that he is actually on Kramnik's side in this whole mess. Slightly surprising, but goes to show how absurd the whole situation is

The score of the match is irrelevant - the one is over as far as I am concern. Topalov may enjoy playing with a mirror from now on - who in right mind would even think to play that moral loser! Our ‘super’ rated champion hangs by the stolen for him game point.

It's sad that Putin is busy with the Spy-issue with Georgia else he would have had Danailov and Topa kidnapped and got a new agreement signed with readiness to replay Game 5.


Yeah, the news is also on http://www.veselintopalov.net . It is good that somebody steps aside. But according to them the problems are not set at all and match is still under question

I believe Topa has chances even from 3:1. If Drawnik doesn't keep playing his boring defensive style.

Apparently, Topalov himself disagrees, marca, otherwise there wouldn't have been any need for any of this... ;o)

I expect that eventually the Topalov team will give in and it will be 3:1. Even they must realize that winning a crucial point by forfeit will only make Topalov look bad. What if he manages to turn the match around after this? With the free point it won't look like a real win and he certainly won't look like a real world champion.

Marca, he will play the way he always does. Topalov should save his energy for meeting with Rajiapov. As far as I know the guy will not visit the toilet as often and a new ways to distract the match will be necessary.

I was pro-Topalov before the match started, but this is ridiculous. Trying to hang on to his ill-gotten gains just shows how afraid of Kramnik he -- or rather his team -- is at this point. I wonder if he realizes just how pathetic he looks.


"It is unacceptable Kramnik to play games with everyone and most of all with FIDE and the organizers"

Heh! I'm sure Mr. Danialov is really concerned about the welfare of FIDE. FIDE ueber alles. His own financial welfare didn't even occur to him, I'm sure.

Well, here I have a few words for everybody that was pro-Topa and is not. You are simply wrong. Topalov is the player that shakes the chess world lately. He has the cool new moves, he participates in every press conference, he spends more time for media than any other player.
And the bathroom scandal? Well, Danailov started it. But don't you think Kramnik was the one to deepen it to a crisis, and that talks should be made instead of replying to the fire??? A calm word from Drawnik could have arranged everything.
Look, Kirsan with a few words convinced them to give even the bigger room!!!!
Sorry guys, I got emotional here, but Topa is a good man. And he will be. He just got involved in a childish fight with serious concequences.

Marca, do be so emotional, calm down and start again with correct spelling of all players names. You could start the process with visit to toilet and splashing cold water to your face. Then take a deep breath and make a piss on your dreams to see Topalov as a respected person any more.

Topa is a cheapo and wants to earn a free point. If Topa were willing to play with 3-1 score than the match would start immediately.

Here is the Solomonic answer!

Instead of proceeding with the score 3-1 or 3-2, proceed with the score of 3-1.5!

Copyright (C) ComputoJon.

Don't worry, Danialov won't be able to figure out the consequences. Studies have shown that weasels have low IQs.

Well, yeah Boba:) You are right, I should go to the Drawnik.....ops... I mean to the toilet.
Now seriously, Boba, which style do you prefer? And do you think Topa was the one to blame?
True, he did not do his best in the first games, but he made them exciting. Would you prefer a match Drawnik-Karpov? I bet you will see 25 draws and a coin toss;)

I prefer style of Morozevitch. he would be my champion by your definition. Topalov should take lessons from him as far as I am concern before playing anyone with deeper understanding of chess game like Kramnik.

Well enough emoting, name-calling, handwringing etc. ... What will happen will happen, and it will not happen today. There is now no relevant deadline today (such as the start of the 6th game) so "bargaining" up to the wire is inevitable.

There is surely a slight upside to this.

I think the very neat thing about all of this is that it will deservedly dump together three people, in the minds of chess players for years to come: Azmaiparashvilli, Makropoulos and Danialov (the Martin, Barton & Fish of FIDE).

Now they really have but one name between them, IMHO, and probably in the minds of most chess lovers. Their name is mud.

Shane, Topalov joins your company by accepting game 5 win.

ComputoJon, An alternative compromise similar to yours would be to skip the tiebreaks and let Topalov keep the title at 6-6.

But the best compromise would be if Topalov kicked Danailov and blamed everything on him and resumed at 1-3. That would be the honorable thing to do!

So after Topalov's team inspects Kramnik's bathroom a couple of hours before the game, it is back to being his own private property, with no inspection or oversight.

So Kramnik can still go and cheat as much as he wants and nobody can stop it.

anyway I do appreciate the way that the offical site keeps reporting all the press-releases and open letters... much has been said about kirsan but apparantly he is trying to clean this mess up...

Yeah tom, you are right, Kirsan is doing good.
Morozevich better than Topa? Drawnik interesting? hehe:) funny jokes


I don't believe veselintopalov.net is Topalov's personal site.

Very nice comment Ruslan, well thought.

Kramnik will not play at 3-2, period.
Ilyumzhinov has too much to lose if the match is terminated.
Therefore, by whatever means, Topalov will be playing, and playing at 3-1.

So Chris, Danailov just got Topalov a time out? Non of his conditions seem to have been accepted.


something that genuinely interests me: How could Top hope to find holes in Krams opening repertoire on the basis of four games played and if he hasn't managed to find them in the last few months?

Ok, to throw a bit of deserved derision on all this pontification ... have a look at the third last picture here


Nigel Short brings a welcome sense of perspective, and an uncanny aim ... look mum, im not looking where i'm shooting. LOL lots and lots

marca, not a matter of what Danailov wants. It's a matter of what Ilyumzhinov wants. As always.

I would like to respond to the comment by fff. I begin with his posting.

" So after Topalov's team inspects Kramnik's bathroom a couple of hours before the game, it is back to being his own private property, with no inspection or oversight.

So Kramnik can still go and cheat as much as he wants and nobody can stop it.

Posted by: fff at October 1, 2006 06:34

Get Real. Neither player is cheating and both players know that. You are simply biased and choose to attack. you are abusing everyone the same as Topalov has abused Kramnik with his attacks.

If you do not have something positive to post then please dont post at all.

and to join the seriousness ... hear hear frank H. Absolutely.

We might all think about taking a similar attitude to all these so-called jokes about brain implants (see susan polgar's clumsy blog entry)and topalov using fritz and kramnik tapping on a toilet and all that.

These things have been swirling around chess for a couple of years now, with regard to the super GMs, and it is dreadfully wrong and horribly counterproductive for our beautiful game.

Update: I was just told that a Russian report says Ilyumzhinov offered 3-1 but playing the match to 16 games and Kramnik said no. Then 3-1 and 14 games and Kramnik said no. Interesting idea that hadn't occured to me. Kramnik is being supported in this by Zhukov, Russian federation prez.

This all shows what biased and incompetent (in the accurate words of Hensel) politicians get you. While this mess originated with Danailov, it could have been easily handled by a competent (and unbiased) appeals committee. Instead they put both players in an impossible position with their ruling.

Darn. Came home "early" (3:30am my time) from my "job" just to see if a game would be played today, as to determine whether this match would continue or not, only to learn that it is STILL in limbo. I mentioned this whole controversy at the card room I was at hoping for some sign of recognition, only to be met with the blankest of blank stares. Oh well, its great theatre anyway.

ComputoJon: "Instead of proceeding with the score 3-1 or 3-2, proceed with the score of 3-1.5!"

What you fail to include in your solution is whether there are 8 games or 7 games remaining to be played after giving the half point. If it is 8, Topolov is being given the 'tiebreak' on what would have been a normal 6-6 match score, similar to what Jens Petersson suggested. I don't see why Kramnik would agree to this, it is quite a large concession when he appears to have the public opinion / moral high ground on his side already. I just don't see it happening. If Kramnik believes he did nothing wrong (which I agree with), why should he give up such an important concession?

If there are only 7 games to be played after giving Topalov the 1/2 point, I think this is strong for Kramnik. Topalov would have to score +2 in just 7 tries to win. Admittedly if there were 8 games left, he would need +2 to just draw, but I think the number of chances to score a full point are slightly more important than a phantom 1/2 point with a lost opportuninty for the full point. Regardless, I don't think either side or the public will agree to such a unbalanced solution. Who has white in the next game then?

Topalov can repair some of the damage if he agrees to 3:1. Kramnik can win a ton of fans ( I know I've switched my rooting interest) if he agrees to 3:2 and goes on to win anyway. From mig's post, mig sees the match continuing at 3:1 as a (coincidentally) 3-1 favorite IF THE MATCH CONTINUES AT ALL (Bayes Theorem - 30% vs 10%). I would put the odds much higher, 17-1 that it is 3:1 IF IT CONTINUES, since I just don't see Kramnik even considering the match at 3:2 unless something like a big check is thrown in.

Guess I'll go nap before the slate of football games come on. At least I know those games will be played...
Bets o' the day:
Chargers -2.5
Titans +9.5
Houston +4
Pats/Bangels under 46.5

How is Topalov's position "impossible"? Other than in his own warped perspective. He carries a lot of self-responsibility for this sh**e.

Do you seriously suggest that Danailov would be acting without Topalov's approval or against his wishes?

Kramnik shouldn't give in an inch. His character was assaulted. Mainstream media world over have been painting Kramnik as the loon and loser in this.

3-1 and 12 games. If Topalov doesn't agree he is disgraced, forgeits the title and doesn't get paid a penny. That's what Kirsan should suggest.

Anything else would reward Topalov+Danailov for bringing the game into disrepute. You can't reward such disgusting behaviour. You can't set such precedent. They should count themselves lucky to be allowed to continue the match at 3-1.

When the bathroom situation and resignation of the appeals commitee both went in favor of Kramniks claims, this clearly shows that at the start of game 5, there was a breach of contract. Whos fault this was (Toplaov or appeals commitee) is not the issue, Topalov did not play either, he just sat there...

In my mind there is no doubt about the match should start again at 3-1.

However, I had thought about the 14 or 16 game compromise, and maybe that is where Kramik actually can give something in the negotiations.

newborn Kramnik fan

Hi all,

Please express your opinion in my poll at



I think that the issue surrounding the score will kill the match.

Given that this, the single most important issue of Kramnik's demands, has not been settled after two days of negotiation, and in light of the following rumour posted on www.chessbase.com:-

"from outside sources we hear that the Bulgarian President has personally urged Topalov's manager Silvio Danailov to stick by his guns"

In my opinion, the current crisis has been brought about by mischief making from Topolov's manager and sheer incompetence by the FIDE appeals committee, the only sensible decision would be continue the match 3:1.

However, can't see this happening.

And I do agree with Jens, the only way for Topalov to save face is to fire Danilov. In addition he needs to give in to Kramniks demands and apologize, then he may be given a second chance...


The suggestion to "Skip the tiebreaks and let Topalov keep the title at 6-6 (with score at 3-1)" is rather interesting... There's precedent too, that the current champion will keep the title in the case of a time match, and since Topalov is the FIDE champion, the idea holds.

Concessions by both sides, but wins on both sides too... as well as face-saving measures.

Since Kramnik's complaint has been upheld, that means contractually, game 5 hasn't happened. Looks like Kirsan is trying to find a grounds to compromise by offering a 14 or 16 game match at 3:1 - that's something that sways more in Topalov's favour because of suggestions over Kramnik's stamina.

Since its obvious that the Bulgarian team's complaint was nonsense, and should have been rejected out of hand, I guess its time to get tough. Either Topalov comes out and plays the fifth game tommorrow, or he gets forfeited from the match.

If Topalov feels aggrieved by that decision, then he needs to take it up with Danailov - since he is solely responsible for Topalov being in this mess.

The mess originated with Kramnik's ludicrous potty breaks. If he doesn't give something (like a 14 game match) then it should be continued from 3:2 or else Kramnik is defaulted.

Otherwise, so neat for Kramnik. He gets a lucky early break in the match, overreacts by defaulting on a game, expects everything returned to his way or else he walks out claiming a win.

Before Kramnik 'violated' any rules by not showing up to game 5 the Appeals Committee had against the rules changed the conditions of the game 5 to be in contradiction with what had been agreed upon prior to the match...so of course game 5 needs to be 'replayed'. Anything else would be madness and not just.

I like the idea of offering Topalov an invitation to the next World Championship tournament in Mexico in case of a loss in this match.
That regulation was nonsense anyway, now would be a great opportunity for FIDE to correct it. As a result, both sides (and chess) will win (because Kramnik would also be invited in case of a loss, of course).

If there is a WC tournament after this match it will make the result of this match basically irrelevant, because then the World Championship is dead. The Chess World Championship must be decided in a match between the Champion and a Challenger.

fff says: "The mess originated with Kramnik's ludicrous potty breaks."

The word ludicrous above is needlessly inflammatory, Kramnik is entitled to pace around his rest area. There is no mention in either of Topalov's complaints that during play he noticed or was upset by this.

Looking at the pictures of the rest area for both players, the door to the toilet is inside the rest area - and the rest area is walled off, with no direct line-of-sight from the playing area. Topalov wouldn't have seen Kramnik entering or leaving the toilet. Unless there was a persistent noticable noise in doing so, Topalov has no grounds for complaint.

It's not Topa's fault ! In my opinion all this mess was triggered by Kramnik's degrading Champions League remarks at the press conference after the fourth game, i.e. that Topa (with white) had nothing (a lie) and that he only had to consider "few forcing lines" (on the sh**ter over his steaming crap that is ?). I mean this guy is playing for a world championship and says that all his concern is to make it home in time for a football game on TV ?! This is not only an insult to his opponent but to the organizers and - that's why I don't understand the anti-Topa statements - to the chess audiance. This is not psychological warfare, he means it: 11 short draws = 500k + WC titel + further years of endless maneuvering about the titel. Kramnik's painter- attitude at its best.

Zhukov, Kramnik and others are simply stupid if they think they could impose ultimatums on Danailov. Such things will be meet with reply: "Kiss my ass".
Topalov was on the scene for game five. Kramnik not. So, Kramnik is playing games with Topalov, not the other way.
Result is 3-2, period. Kramnik will accept it or the match is over.

Here is an interesting suggestion made by Zek, admin on ICC. I think it makes sense :

Let's have Kramnik agree on the 3-2 score

but change the overall # of games to 5...

I think it's fair to both sides, isn't it ?

Topalov could even comment his win in New in Chess, the best chess review in the world...

Update: I was just told that a Russian report says Ilyumzhinov offered 3-1 but playing the match to 16 games and Kramnik said no. Then 3-1 and 14 games and Kramnik said no.

I would have like this. Twelve games is short for a championship match. The question of Kramnik's health is a valid one, however.

Simply forfeit Topalov for refusing to play game 5 and then game 6 and award the title to Kramnik. It is time to move on. FIDE simply must be above the grandstanding by Prima Dona Players and their entourage.

Now I dont want to come over all cultural relativist, but ...

So much of the discussion here and elsewhere seems to fall into the category of moralising and bush lawyerism. Topalov should do this, Kramnik should do that, FIDE should ... blah blah. Alternately, Section 74 of the contract says this, Rule 27 of the appeals committee says that ...

Its not that moral and legalistic arguments are uninteresting, its just that they are not relevant. When Kirsan says "this is political" it means he will impose a solution without being bound by such silly constraints as law. And in the way of Eastern Europe, and I speak as someone who lived in EE for nearly 12 months, that is the way it is and the law is quite irrelevant. Even the shadow of the law is irrelevant. I know this is difficult for those who have spent their whole lives in civilised societies to understand, but it is the way much of the world is. This is not and will not be about lawyers, judges, contracts, rules. It scarcely ever is, in Eastern Europe. The law might have been involved had the match taken place in the civilised world, but it did not, and so it is not. This is now a negotiation. We might think, instead of thundering about honour and chicanery, simply what are the strategies available to the three parties (T and the two Ks, Kirsan and Kramnik) and what are the payoffs associated with each of them. It blinds and blinkers any attempt to reach a desirable outcome to cloud the analysis with outrage and shouting. Surely chess players know this better than anyone. Sure enough, the blame game and the name-calling game and the bluster about champions league matches game and the lying about the opponent game are all available strategies, but they do not even begin to scratch the possible means for extricating the match from the miasma.

bobo says: "Topalov was on the scene for game five."

Kramnik made the point that FIDE had breached the terms of the contract for the World Championship match, by locking the private toilets. (This position has now been validated by the resignation of the Appeals Committee). Had the toilets been unlocked, that would have corrected the breach of contract, and Game 5 could then have happened.

As it was, Topalov sat at the board for an hour waiting for what he (and the arbiter) thought was Game 5 (again, if that is a problem for Topalov, it's one he has with Danailov for not telling him of the breach of contract that had occurred). Once the Appeals Committee's decision was rescinded, effectively acknowledging FIDE's breach of contract, under that contract, game 5 hasn't been played.

Since the decision on the toilets only happened this morning in Elista, Game 5 under the contract for the World Championship can now be played.

Laurent S.:"Let's have Kramnik agree on the 3-2 score

but change the overall # of games to 5...

I think it's fair to both sides, isn't it ?"

Depends on who gets the 3 whites. Much like the 3-1.5 and 7 games left possible option I posted above, if Kramnik gets the 3 whites out of 5 (or 4 w/ 7 games to play), he should probably like this deal. Which means Topalov will never allow Kramnik to have the greater number of whites, nor will Kramnik allow Topalov to have it, and we are back to square one.

This is really a tough one. I will be amazed if both sides agree to change the number of games to be played. It all comes down to the 'value' that Topolav should be given (if anything) for his signed game 5 scoresheet. If Kramnik values this at zero and Topalov does not, it is an impasse. So we should concentrate on finding a value that is agreeable to both sides, pretending that that value exists.

For me, I think the top most value I could possible assign it (and I think Kramnik would be magnanomous in even this) would be to replay game 5 at a 3:1 score but give Topalov the white pieces. From there, the colors would alternate normally once again. It might seem unfair since Topalov would then have 2 whites in a row (game 4 and 5), but in reality, altering the colors normally from there, will still give each player 6 whites each. It might have some ancillary value since it gives Topalov an immediate white to try to gain ground upon resumption of game 5, but it does not give an unbalanced match and is probably enough to save face for both sides without really altering the fairness of the match.

It is sad that Topalov has hired such an incompetent manager, who apparenty know's nothing about PR.

From being maybe the most popular chess player in the world, Topalov has now become the black sheep of chess.

More games will compromized Kramnik plans for plaing with computer next month. Let's at least this match to happens - for sure computer will not be against of toilet visits ;-)

I think Topalov made a mistake by agreeing to a match in Elista. He should have insisted on a match in a neutral venue.

AZ79 takes a hard line, but I thoroughly agree with him: Topalov should give "his" point back.

There was absolutely no way Kramnik could play game 5; to do so would have ratified the unfair decision of the Appeals Committee. Since the decision of that committee has now effectively been deemed wrong (at best: biased at worst), it only makes sense that any consequences that flowed from it (such as attempting to play game 5 in ridiculous circumstances) should also be retracted. The rule pertaining to Kramnik's forfeit of a game without playing a move may be located in a different "place" (or be of a different order) from the ruling that locked Kramink's restroom door, but that shouldn't obscure the fact that they are intimately related: the one practically forces the other. Accordingly, if any link of that chain is deemed unsound, the whole chain must be scrapped.

Topalov has no more right to that point than he had a right to make Kramnik change his bathroom. If he can concede the latter, he must concede the former.

If I were Kramnik, I'd take 3-1 and 14 games. It was too short a match to begin with. I don't blame him for standing by principle though since he was treated unjustly.

FIDE must be really feeling the heat if the Appeals committee resigned and negotiations are heavily favoring Kramnik. The Appeals committee includes bigwigs like Azmaiparashvili and Makropoulus!

Here is one last possible bit of compromise that might be seen as face-saving and of some value: Give Topalov a "time-out" in hand that he can use at any time to postpone any future game for 1 day. The theory would bet that Kramnik used his "time-out" between games 4 and 5 to break the schedule in order to resolve these issues. Topalov this still has a time-out of his own that he can use if he wants, whenever he wants going forward. Start at game 5 and 3:1.

This is enough of a 'reward' that implies that Topalov was dutiful in appearing for the previous game 5 and for his troubles gets to also postpone a game of his choosing by one day. Face-saving, and I'm sure Kramnik wouldn't mind it too much if an additional rest day were inserted somewhere in the future.

Otherwise, I'm out of ideas that are face-saving, yet not too impactful on the match.

Stern, I like your idea!
I hope it's enough for Topalov. I really can't see Kramnik refusing it.

Posts saying that anything happened in Kramniks favour are nonsense - all he wants is the situation before this potty breaks nonsense was started by the Topalov team.

One can claim they want a few more days or a week or so to re-analyze Kramniks openings.. they are unable to really make headway.

And the facts are - if Topalov did not make the mistakes that any master or strong club player could have avoided - he should have been UP 2.5 -1.5 instead of DOWN 1-3.

Topalov has lowered his prestige by letting his team do this diry work.

Chessbase reports from David Levy :
"There is a precedent for electronic sweeping – the Icelandic organisers examined Spassky’s chair during the 1972 match, after Fischer had suspected the chair of containing something untoward."
Is this right or wrong ?
I remember was Fischer's chair to be examined due to a request from Geller (leader of Spassky delegation).

Dirtbag said: "I think Topalov made a mistake by agreeing to a match in Elista. He should have insisted on a match in a neutral venue."

Yes neutral would have been better. Now the FIDE champ plays in FIDE land and the FIDE appeals committee rules in his favour. It makes both Topalov and FIDE look bad.


It was a joke actually : settle the score to 3-2, but declare this is a 5-game match ;-)


There is no face-saving value in your suggestion. Hardly. The 'theory that Kramnik used his 'time out' between games 4 and 5 to break the schedule...' assumes it was of Kramnik's doing, and thatsimply is not true from any objective point.



which sums it up nicely.

Kramnik perdio el partido 5 , pues no se presento. Asi que no se discute: Kramik 3 Topalov 2
Los caprichos de Kramnik no me interesan. Se comporta como una mujer histerica y que tiene mucho miedo de perder. Topalov, pese a las dos derrotas, ha demostrado ser muy superior. Topalav es un creador, Kramnik un burocrata del ajedrez.

The Appeals Committe would have been changed anyway. Azmaiparashvili was in Athens during the weekend playing for the Greek Club Cup.

FIDE land is unfortunately in Russia and Putin can just extract a concession to give his favorite Kramnik the title.

I have been more pro-Topalov than most throughout this farce. I don't think he's entirely to blame. Kramnik overreacted by not turning up for game 5.

But all that is irrelavent now. He has forget all the nonsense and play from 3-1. The only thing to argue about is the playing schedule for the rest of the match. I hope this is what is causing the delay.

Heres a thought, just in case you thought it couldn't get any worse: What if they start the game tomorrow and Topalov decides to do a Kramnik and not show up? Any ideas what the score should be? 4-1? 3-1? 3-2? 4-2? Any other offers?

Enough is enough with this idiotic situation now in Elista. Every day that passes and every 'negotiation' that proceeds, only adds to chess' ridicule. Iliumzhinov is the president, one-man appeal commitee and paying sponsor all by himself. There is nothing to be negotiated now regarding this transparentlyh artificial and groundless issue, especially after he tacitly conceded that the previous commitee's decision was wrong. So now lets just adopt a final stance and get on with it. Score stands at 3-1 as 99% of non-Topalov die-hards recognize as fair, the restroom/toilet issue is resolved in such and such a way, and play is to resume tommorow at 2 p.m.. Whoever doesn't show up, makes his opponent the world champion and saves me 500000 in prize money. Enough said.

I understand that FIDE will be required to provide the following toilets for the next match:


If only Bessel Kok had gotten the job in the first place!


I suspect like most people I was bitterly disappointed at the halting of play. I was not surprised at Kramnik's success at that point - if you look at the record between the 2 players it is clear Kramnik has an edge over Topalov. The complaint by Topalov, the handing over of the film and the decision of the appeals committee to uphold the complaint were sickening. The forfeiture of game 5 was invalid and the outcome is now clearly predictable. The 2 players will be required to resume the match at 3-1 on conditions as they prevailed at the start. Topalov will then not show up and will forfeit the game and subsequently the match. Psychologically he has no alternative - it is preferable for him to lose like this than to continue and lose the match "fair and square" - he can pretend he has not really lost. His reputation however has been irrevocably damaged whatever he does.Kramnik has now successfully defended his title twice.

I agree with Vol's posting. This has gone to ridiculous lengths now, 'chess' and 'toilet' will become related terms in google searches after a few more mainstream articles in the current vain, and in the end there is nothing realy there to be negotiated for. Kirsan should make a final decision tonight, taking into account the position of chess fans worldwide ( prety unanimous on where the score realy stands, I think ), as well as the signed contracts and agreements the players had. It's not as if we require the Hague world court to investigate this ridiculous matter in depth.

On a side-note, this pumpering of grown-up sports pros who consider their signed agreements and PR responsibilities as trivialities to be ingored when it suits them, is extremelly dissapointing and highlights both a total lack of professional culture as well as a lack of firm leadership.

Of all suggestion how to save the match, the extension idea seems to be the worst. That's the justification, one player is too far behing??!!

It would be a great idea, if accepted before the match, terrible in the middle. The match is planned, the oppening novelties are prepared.

We should not change the original agreement, albeit, imperfect. The rules should be respected.
I suspect, Topalov's team expected a walk in a park, agreed on things they would not agree otherwise, and was caught by surprise. But it is way too late

Everybody is discussing about the score and if the match has to be continued on the 3:1 or 3:2 situation.
I don't think that Kramnik should continue to play even if the score is set again on the 3:1, for the simple reason that after all this mess he would probably be psychologically shaken.
In other words the damage has been done, and nobody could really return to the situation how it was before.

I don't think Topalov was expecting such a walk in the park at all Michael, given the greatly negative score in the encounters between them. On the contrary, his previous dismissive statements of Kramnik's status betray an insecurity on his part, which turned into despair when he found himself at -2 despite getting great positions in the first four games. And panic is always the worst of advisers.

Beeing a true champion, is more than just technical skill and high rating. It's also how you handle it, when you're behind.

Kramnik has proven that he is a true champion, when he managed to turn the match against Leko.

Topalov has still to prove, that he is made of the stuff of a true champion.

It took 2 days, but finally someone has mentioned the same crucial point I posted about on 9/29.

Bessel Kok agrees that Arbiter Gijssen's momentus albeit unnecessary decision to start the game 5 clock was a "mistake":

----- BESSEL KOK WROTE (ChessBase.com, Sunday 01.10.2006) -----

The arbiter subsequently started a game which should have never been played in the first place, because the playing conditions had been unilaterally modified. This was a second mistake, although Geurt Gijssen will probably defend his decision by stating that he based this on the verdict of the Appeals Committee.

----- (from chessninja.com, "Taking the piss (BladderGate 2)" , and chessville.com)


All aspects of this fiasco must be examined. I believe it is legitimate to at least inquire about the choices made by the Arbiter of this match.

Geurt Gijssen was only following the rules when he started Kramnik's clock. Yes, that is *all* he was doing. Maybe sometimes mechanically following the rules is not good enough. Perhaps this was a moment we needed the Arbiter to get creative, to rise to the occasion, to consider the bigger picture. I am not sure what to think about this. But...
Had Gijssen removed the clock instead of pressing it, neither player would now be backed into a corner with no way out, and the match could still continue after negotiations. But once the clock was started it made diplomacy impossible.

Posted by: Gene_M at September 29, 2006 14:44 (Friday)

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Geurt Gijssen was in a difficult pressure packed situation, a situation that was changing by the hour. Anyone could have errored under such pressure.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


See pages 316 and 339 in "U.S. Chess Federation's Official Rules of Chess, 5th Edition" (McKay, 2003), in chapter "15 FIDE Laws of Chess":

[] "The Laws of Chess cannot cover all possible situations..."

This gave the arbiter the power to remove the game 5 clock, rather than starting it.

[] "13.2 The arbiter shall act in the best interest of the competition. He should ensure that a good playing environment is maintained..."

Kramnik's protest, that the proper bathroom environment had not been maintained, has subsequently been ratified by today's negotiated agreement on that one point.

- - - - - - - - -

Nothing changes the fact that Kramnik (and Hensel) blundered by using brinksmanship as a negotiation tactic. Topalov was given the ugly game 5 full point legally. Topalov is not honor bound to give up the point, at least not without compensation.

Vladimir, we need you to continue your defense of the one WCC title that matters, the title that FIDE Champion Topalov says no longer exists.

Gene Milener

It makes me wonder about Kramnik's rare disease that he has to go the bathroom often, as per Joel Lautier. Was the rare disease making Kramnik go to the restroom often during the Olympiad and Dortmund also ? Or is it that the rare disease surfaced just before the match with Topalov ? Makes you wonder whether there really is some skullduggery going on in Kramnik's guilt. After all, the match is being played in Russia and Kramnik is Russian. The match came through due to pressure from Zhukov. I am not willing to absolve Kramnik of all guilt.

Could we make a petition to Topalov with the title "Veselin, please fire Danailov"? I think it will get a lot of signatures and perhaps it will help him see the truth.
It is obvious that he trusts Danailov too much as "all of the negotiations on his part are made by Danailov".

Dear Mig,

you asked to post all the rants about your open letter to Veselin to the different thread, and i'm following your request.

Mig, i want to congratulate you. You've written a wonderful letter to the guy who was clearly losing (just remember the last game, where Topalov had white, used a novelty, had an extra 40 minutes of time and yet failed to win. Kramnik clearly showed him that he not gonna give 2 scores back).

That guy, instead of doing his best in chess, resorted to a dirty (literally dirty!) trick of talking about 'suspiciously often pissing' opponnent.

Mig, you know chess more than me, i think. You can clearly see that there was NO computer assistance in first 4 games. I'm a very weak player, and yet i can see a series of fritz-like movies. There was nothing that resembles computer play.

And what are you doing? You are talking with this fully grown adult, who tried to cheat in order to achieve his goals, like with a crying kid, asking him to continue the match.

"We understand that the forfeit was not your fault". Sorry for a rude language, but WTF, Mig? Who was that fault, if not Topalov's?! Who signed all the papers with a cheerful smile?! Or maybe he had a gun pointed to his back while doing it?!

"You have the respect of the fans of the chess world as a player, fighter, and sportsman". Are you sure, Mig?

"Accepting a point you did not win over the board is beneath your position and reputation". Bad news, Mig. This guy does not care about such silly things as 'reputation' -- as long as he hold FIDE WCC title and earns 500k$.

Mig, i seriously think that Topalov should be boycotted (yes, boycotted) for his tricks. If we want to see pure, clear chess, we should ban all the guys who is acting dirt. Licking their balls asking them "to continue playing" will bring a much more trouble to our favorite game. Much more trouble.

...but hey, i'm just a humble amateur.

I wrote the letter to Topalov because he can choose for the match to continue properly. Well, so can Kramnik, but I don't feel 3:2 is fair after the absurd decision by the appeals committee. I'm not trying to be nice to Topalov or anyone else. I'm just being civil.

The point is that Topalov has, if somewhat indirectly, done something unsporting and unworthy. His protest was frivolous and probably malicious (at least in delivery), but it wasn't extraordinary or cheating and should have been tossed out by a competent appeals committee. Instead it led to disaster. But he has a chance to rectify that in a stroke by agreeing to play at 3:1.

The Danailov situation is tricky. He has known Veselin for a very long time. I don't doubt he believes he has Topalov's best interests at heart, or doubt that Topalov is convinced of this. Remember Danailov was the guy telling Ponomariov not to play Kasparov in 2003.

I think the match should be cancelled.

Topalov should be stripped of the FIDE title and banned from the sport for 2 years.

Kramnik should be awarded the vacated title and the next cycle should take place.

Simple and easy.

I really don't know why there is any negotiating going on regarding the score. The changes by the Appeals Committee were wrong and illegal. Expecting Kramnik to play under those circumstances was wrong and illegal. Game 5 should not have been played on that day, finish!

Mr Danailov says "the 3:2 result has already been fixed by judges and cannot be changed." The same "judges" who fouled up, and helped create this nonsense? Fortunately, this is not football (soccer), and we are allowed to reverse goals scored by the "hand of God" (with apologies to Diego Maradona).

Of course, it has seemed for a while that Mr Danailov is beyond shame, hopefully he has not completely infected Topalov.

So the match seems to be continuing at the score 3:2. For Topalov to be recognised in the the event that he wins he will need to win by atleast two points...otherwise I do not see that there will be any credibility in the result. Ofcourse he now has to get two points with less games in hand.

Still think he should have simply been forfieted...need to let these arrogant chess players that they participate in the event and are not the event themselves. Imaging if a tennis player refused to play the second game because he did not like his edge of court seating arrangements? What a complete farce.

Chess does not deserve to be recognised by the mass media as a legitimate sport!

A better analogy is:

Imagine if a tennis player refused to play the second game because he did not like the fact the umpire ordered him to return serves with his bare hands.

Ok, just half-kidding. Anyway, chess is not tennis.

The official FIDE website states:

"The FIDE President has made several proposals for further continuation of the match, which unfortunately were not accepted. After the detailed study of the current situation and the consultation with the FIDE Legal Advisor, the FIDE President decided:

Tomorrow, 2 October 2006, at 15.00, the 6th Game of the World Chess Championship Match Topalov-Kramnik with the score 3:2 in favour of Kramnik, will take place."

It doesn't say that Kramnik accepts this unilateral (and, IMHO, completely wrong) decision,
and that Kramnik will play tomorrow.
Moreover his website doesn't say anything about it.
In my opinion he should leave Elista immediately.

Second, I completely agree with OnlySolution: Topalov should be banned from official chess circuits (perhaps forever?).

Being a diehard sports fan, bandwagon fans are the absolute worst. Many have said that a week ago they were Topalov fans and did not like Kramnik's style. Today, they are Kramnik's fans and do not like Topalov's ethics. It is ridiculous to read these type of comments.

I'm not arguing the case in detail here, but this bandwagon stuff is really unbelieveable. If people are fans based on whether players they like have the moral highground, there are many things that can be said about a number of top players in the past 30 years.

Fischer still has millions of fans as does Kasparov. Both have have made questionable decisions in chess and are (by large consensus) the greatest two players ever to sit down behind the 64s. The entire schism that we suffer from today was created (in great part) by these two players.

World Championship controversies are nothing new. Topalov's management gave him bad advice (I'd ask for Danailov's resignation and offer a contractual buy-out) and the Appeals Committee apparently made a mistake.

I believe for the sake of chess, Topalov should try to win this match from 3-1! He can very well do it. I'm a Topalov fan even though he has made some questionable decisions in his negotiation. His worse mistake was choosing Danailov as the manager.

I did not know that it was olnly 20 times and not 50 times that Kramnik was using the restroom. Anyway, why is so difficult to play only chess and see which one is the best?

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    About this Entry

    This page contains a single entry by Mig published on October 1, 2006 5:23 AM.

    What's the Problem? was the previous entry in this blog.

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